Countering the hug

[cal12345]

firstly i know there are rules about not changing countries in 2 squad but are there rules about changing planes??...

i ask this because my solution would be to bring my squad back with 5 cadet pilots in thus early fw190 (new names for match) and blaze right through the enemy base at low alt with 109s providing top cover...

i like the 190 for its ability to hit strong over range and i reckon a few going in and out together could counter hugging.... being away from aa at moment and missing a recent match i am feeling sick and was wondering what other peoples opinions are.....................

even though i like the 190 and wouldnt mind going match in a 190 ,i dont think my fellow pilots do and would thus hate for them to play a match without hugging :) so the answer to the question at start of post i feel is important...

[cal12345]

opinions please.......

[Marky B]

AFAIK the changing of planes is not allowed once the match has started.

[334th Lenagh]

I reckon you would all die horribly. (sorry)

If you want to test your theorem you only have to ask.

Len (Hugging expert)

[XRobList]

Originally posted by cal12345
firstly i know there are rules about not changing countries in 2 squad but are there rules about changing planes??...

Yes, once match has begun you cant change sides- its in the rules

['Bat*21']

he meant PLANES rob lol

[paulfitzs]

Not quite sure if this would work as too much time might be spent in AA lethal zone (I must admit I've often thought along similar lines though). If tactic don't work with the FW190a it probably won't work at all though. Someone hugging close to the edge of their AA zone could be picked off by say 2 - 3 early FWs in swift succession. It could also panic or force someone into evading outside AA cover. The damaged FW's would have to spend a good bit of time running for repair but on the other hand might tempt the enemy up in pursuit.

Why change plane mid game anyway, why not start with a coupla 190a's since you can clearly see its STRONG point? Anyway a mixed plane tactic seems a good idea to me, it is recommended on quite a few flight-sim websites. 6 109k's & 4 190a's could possibly do the job. One tip here, don't start with CDt rank cos it's a dead giveaway which planes are which. Get to FLt+19, you can then start match with FW190a and keep it even if promoted.

If the tactic works it could lead to Hurris being used to "break out" and an interesting scenario could ensue. It warrants a try with Butcher Bird devotees versus some committed base huggers.

[[336th] ICE-MAN]

LOL nope, like len says, you will all die

[Dave B]

After watching the Godz replay (v 4th), I think going East to West down the runway is suicidal. I would suggest climbing with 2 others, going to the West of the SU runway diving down low, possibly 3 abreast, skimming the runway in direction of takeoff and taking out anything on the deck or just off it. Anyone chasing could be picked off from top cover.

[Phillie Time]

and scrub the 190 idea.... it always was ... always is and always will be a total hunk of pooh in AA...... (maybe in real life it's great... but in real life I'm not a WWII fighter pilot mmmkaaay :)

You can't go into a match expecting the hug.... cause if the opposition plays a normal half... and you're in 190's.... you will almost certainly loose... can't turn, can't climb, can't loop...

[Edited by Phillie Time on 20-11-2000 at 02:49 PM]

[Dave B]

PT, have you tried the 190A, its worth creating a new pilot just to have a go. Wicked firepower mate!

[paulfitzs]

I never said it'd work, just that it's a valid excercise along the lines of "I wonder what'd happen if..."

In WP3 teams last night about 10:30 I flew (as SU) right across GB base at right angles to runway, took few hits, got a kill of the GB pilot who'd just taken off and survived. When I tried to repeat it, I got shot down by AAA so to make this a viable tactic would certainly take a whole lot of practice AND split second timing. Point is, it CAN be done and the 190a is much more robust than an LA7.

Trying this tactic could prove just a tad more interesting than the boring stalemate it was thought up to break. My Mrs will just about accept I fly, and try to shoot down, pretend planes, she'd have my goolies if she thought I flew them round & round in circles for half an hour getting bored!

I s'pose at the end of the day GB only base hug cos GE S&B in 109k's from 15,000ft, if the fox don't run ya can't chase it eh? Another way to break the deadlock is to play matches in a Teams Tactical arena or limit the ammo so GE gotta RTB to rearm.

[ReKKa]

Hey!
The 190 is great!

Think of it as a 109 for people who can't hit anything.
Like me.
I often miss, then have to take my target down with the 2 12.7 MGs. This takes days! Whilst I'm doin' this the whole GB airforce is sittin' on my tail and as soon as I dispatch the target, his m8ts get me.
With a 190, U can fire for ages, so hit 'em bad with the 0.5s MGs and 20mm cannons which do some monster damage and it takes them much longer to overheat than that bloomin' 30mm cannon on the 109K-4. So, U can kill your target with much less hastle if your a crappy shot and then zoom off, using your supperior climb rate to get away from and La/Spit/Bus and then dive down on 'em again to kill.
And its armored, and it roll round and round like a spinnin' top on Acid.
Can be a usefull tactic to use that roll rate sometimes.

I still prefer 109 tho, its just that the 190 is just so damn nice!
Tank Kurt= Genius!

Plus, in REAL life, it was the best GE A/C (or its cousin, the Ta152).

[paulfitzs]

Quote

"PT, have you tried the 190A, its worth creating a new pilot just to have a go. Wicked firepower mate!"

Thanks for the backup Dave, this was cal's original point.

Most peeps experience of the FW is the 190d not the 190a. Even the 190d is a good bit above average when flown well but the 190a (as modelled in AA) is far superior to it. As it is only available to newcomers it is sadly neglected by them because of the handling and the more advanced players are seduced by exploding canon on the 109k. The 190a is IMO by far the hardest plane to kill. In a mele when u aint sure what plane is what by the time your Spit has killed the 190a one of the 109k's has boomed you, this is why I suggested (if the tactic worked) GB might need to employ hurris.

To all you guys who never really tried it out you are missing a treat in the 190a eh Dave?

[334th Lenagh]

I can assure you all we are missing is a quick death.

[Dave B]

Len, nooooooooooooooooooo u got to try it, honestly. Its a blast in FFA using S&B tactics. Teams its good also, love head to head in it... done loads of h2h's in it to leave one or two bemused LA7 pilots wondering WTF was that!!

It takes hits like theres no tomorow too.

If you havent tried it, give it a go.

[Phillie Time]

lol...... yes I've flown then.... yes they're still pooh.... rolling isn't very usefull without being able to pull up etc....

we're talking about realistically breaking a hug - that's all...


:)

BTW..... I think I'd happily take on a 190 1v1 in anything..... and be pretty confident that it would loose.

[334th Lenagh]

Trust me m8 I have flown the in's and outs of every plane. I would be a fool not to know the in's and outs of all of them.

But in a teams environment given the choice I woulod use a 109 over a 190.

[LAH]

I don't see the point, if the other squad is base hugging and you pin them you should win the match.

Why not use the 190's to take out the AA guns first, then they can tear into the rest, not a cool tactic unless they are being cowards :)

FW190's great in a crowded FFA arena ploughing through big furballs, blast straight through and out till it's safe to turn then repeat :)

[334th Lenagh]

The only thing the hug counter truly needs is perfect synchronisation by 10 pilots.
Get good teamwork you can take a giant poop on the team thats hugging.

But it has to be planned like a fecking SWAT raid on a house.

Len

[Pol]

IMHO the 190 is very much under-rated.
Its main disadvantage is its difficulty in pulling out of a dive. Apart from that, its fast, reasonably maneouvrable and has tons of firepower.
The problem is that everyone sees the 109 and just goes for it. Its probably because of the amazement you feel when someone explodes you when you are a rookie - after that you just want the chance to do it to other people- and who can blame you? :E

I sometimes wonder if it would make for a more interesting game if squads were forced to split 50:50 between the two planes in each nationality : 109/190 vs Yak/La vs Spit/Hurri vs P51/P38. It could make for some interesting tactics!

[Phillie Time]

cool idea :)

[paulfitzs]

LAH
Point is, if you play GB 1st half and get a poor ratio cos u didn't hug and GE got high, how do you recover ratio if they hug in second half? Result is, next time you hug as pre emptive measure, they hug in response and everyone wastes an hour flying round shooting nothing, hence cal12345's original posting.

LEN
109k only betters 190a if you can always ensure those 1st couple of shots hit as, like Rekka says, we aint all marksmen and the MGs on the 109k are rubbish. Once cannon overheats you don't even outgun a Yak. 190a guns maintain lethality far, far longer and the airframe is much more robust. I think a team with 109k's for the best marksmen and 190a's for the rest would be more successful than 109k's on their own.

Phillie
Even in a Hurri iia, La5, Yak 9, p51b, 109g or a 190d ? Considering the 190a can kill a 109k and a Hurri iic in a H2H and absorb massive damage I know what I'd chose. Don't forget the 190a is virtually invulnerable to engine damage (unlike every other plane in the game) how many times you heard 109 pilots say "Bah, glider!!!" ?
I certainly agree with you on Pol's idea though!

Cal12345 came up with a very risky tactic with a severely limited chance of success but has correctly identified the only tool with even the remotest chance of pulling it off.

[Phillie Time]

hehehehe and if I pull an avoid... you be dead meeeesta :bandit: your highly armoured tank will be reassigned to ploughing duty again........

and no.. I don't mean the old 190... thats even worse..... they're both pants IMHO :)

[cal12345]

thanks for yer opinion guys. fitz,dave and pol think yer of similarish opinion as me as to worthiness of 190a.

in the past year i have flown for a few squads (not at same time i hasten to add) and they all like 109s. i always find that by the time im close enough to damage them in matches theyre jinking and avoiding- i h8 the aircraft. i find 190 is more of a leisurely plane allowing you to saunter in and do some initial damage whichll cripple them for the kill from a reasonable distance. i find the 190 even alone combined with 9 other 109s is useful as when the teams ive been with have got a hold on match the enemy havbe tried to stay low and my 190 can do0 b****y good h2hs. even in pins i find a 190 placed bout 1500m below 109s can come in quite effectively on the horizontal and take out las and spits etc in the climb- one match my fw took out 4 tigers before one below got me..all were in the climb(sounds like boasting..its not..im not a particularly great pilot but can see the use of the 190) and if you hold back and dont rush in the 190 can be pretty effective.
ive tried horizontal battles (sounds stupid i know-dont know how else to describe it) in 109s which yes i know its not designed for and was naff.
yes the 190 is vulnerable.. 616 seriously hammered my poor 190 in one match but they were all low and twas only me fighting on the same 'plane'-was mauled by spits before i climbed to join 109s and did bit of dive killing.
anyway enough said...
i like the 190...i hate the 109

[Edited by cal12345 on 21-11-2000 at 06:00 PM]

[Phillie Time]

lol You guuuuuuuys :)

Guess I'll have to try it again to make sure I'm happy with my opinion........

[ThePants999]

Phillie - I volunteer to be the one to prove your h2h theory...

Firepower means 190a in Teams or Hurri in FFa.

[334th Lenagh]

h2h's, armour etc its all brute force flying your putting preservation of your aircraft second.

Out flying your opponent is more effective than simply outgunning him.

Like I say any time you want to test a theory please call me.

Len

[Phillie Time]

You're on Pants I'll contact you to set it up.... I had a "interesting" session in the 190a in FFA last night :) Mmmmmmm reminded me why I hate the 190.....

I'm sorry but dying more slowely than other planes does not appeal to me... I'd rather not get shot at all :)... if it takes hits it simply won't pull up.... I found it was magnetically drawn to the ground if damaged..... and as for getting stuck low level trying to turn after being shot... forget it..... you barely get enough lift to fly at all.. let alone turn.....

190 flyers... I admire your dedication.... gimme a fancy spit or yak anyday :E

[Dave B]

Yes but PT, back to the original point, disregarding the weaknesess that you have correctly pointed out, could it be used to break a hug?

I think there could be some substance in this thought.

Excellent firepower and can take hits, think about it.

[paulfitzs]

Quoute:-

"Out flying your opponent is more effective than simply outgunning him."

Len,
Sure is, I understand what you mean. Yes simple firepower and ruggedness will never win on its own but neither will greater manoeuvrability. There is a very subtle relationship between power, speed, climb, ruggedness, manoeuvrability, and firepower. The most popular plane in AA is the Spit because although it does not excell in any of those categories it is above average in most (it is no accident I left this out of the list I quoted to Phillie). The 109k and La7 are also fairly popular as good alrounders. The Yak3 is wonderfully agile but has no knockout punch and no armour, the 190a is at the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. Both planes are minority interests because of their extreme specialisation, nevertheless having a small but loyal band of followers. I like them both, the Yak hits a bit harder than most peeps think and the 190a turns a bit better than it is given credit for. At the end of the day a good plane can't make up for a bad pilot but a good pilot can make up for a "bad" plane.

Phillie/Pants
Ultimately a 1v1 proves as much as anything which pilot is best as which plane. No problem, I'm sure you'll have a good laugh either way it goes & that's what AA is all about.
Please post result and don't forget to record it!

[tinvek]

ive used the 190a in a couple of 4 squad matches and with a bit of thought it is a useful weapon.

on the other hand i once went h2h against 3 190's in a p51d at about 100m alt and killed all 3 for 80% damage.

btw, we all know the latter 190 is a worse handling plane with poorer guns, but as its modelled on the destroyer varient, has anyone checked how solid its armour is?


in real life it needed to fly to within 100m of the b17's before firing due to the low velocity of the very large cannon it carried and the small amount of these huge shells it could carry. now you can imagine how much armour you needed to survive flying inside a box of b17's and having to almost match your speed due to the need to aim very carefully whilst the whole b17 formation was using their crossfire to try and knock you down. if it had the same armour in aa then it would be the aircraft equivelent of captain scarlet :)

btw best ever results for it were against a box of 24 liberators when 16 190 destroyers killed all 24 in less than 30 seconds. main cannon was so powerfull that 1 shell could split the main wing spar of a b17!

[Phillie Time]

Fair points :) You can maintain a fair ratio in FFA in it.... but if your instinct is to dogfight then it's not the plane for you....

For the hub breaking I still dunno... it didn't seem very fast at killing AA..... It seems that buildings/AA are more vunerable to a fast firing rate rather than big shells - like the spit or P51 (totally guessing here.... so don't punish me for it :{ )

I'll agree the 190's cannons do stay the distance unlike the 109 :)

[cal12345]

yup
the 190a is sure sluggish but you take that into account when flying it-- i never fly it in ffa but where you have teamm8s around you its totally different, ie you can seek protection quite effectively, line up h2hs with impunity (not worrying bout sneaky g*t*), dash down under aa *(i never take out the aa) and with my cannons hitting from range i dont really dink around (which normally is what gets other aircraft within aa)...
i was due to sail for sierra leone tonight and was cancelled for a day so please try n keep this thread going for when i return,., lol (grr only 3 weeks :( )... if you dont keep this thread going then at least sort out this darned hug counter cos hugging sucks :)