Another DSl option

[Custodian]

Seen this? http://www.tele2.co.uk/signup_dslathome.html

They are offering always-on 150kbps via wireless connection (so phone line remains free) for £119.88 a year or £12.99 a month.

Need to live in the right house of course...

Anyone using it?

[UsediLLusioN]

they've been round to my house tiday to install it, but im out of line of sight, so i can't have it
im gonna have to get a cable modem instead

[[PunK]]

Custodian, that's only what I've been blabbing on about for the past 3 weeks *rolls eyes*.

They were supposed to install it today but they didn't turn up. I'm reasonably confident that I will be in line of sight though. I e-mailed someone who has it who doesn't use it for games. He didn't say anything about d/l speeds or pings but he said it was a very reliable service, which, nowadays is quite a rare thing in itself.

Bad luck, usedillusion, for not being able to get it. Where do you live by the way? And was it raining when they came to install it? Please answer. thx

[Slime]

Surely wireless will have terrible latency ? It'd be great if anyone gets it and proves me wrong, but i can't see this as a good solution for gamers ??

Cheers
Slime

[Custodian]

okey dokey Punk...hadn't noticed that :/

keep us posted on how it goes....

[PADDYBOY]

Originally posted by Slime
Surely wireless will have terrible latency ?

Why?

You aren't the first to say that Slime but no-one has actually given a credable reason ... you all just come out with this thing about wireless DSL having terrible latency. It might have and it might not have but no-one knows and no-one can explain why it would be bad (or for that matter, good) for gaming ...

[C_More]

With my limited electronics knowledge I will try to answer this, it is probably wrong but at least i've tried... :)

Wireless devices are known to be far more unreliable than hard lines (take mobiles and land lines) due to their reliance on the quality of the signal that they both send and recieve(due to refraction of wave in clouds etc), because of this a lot more checking must be done on all data that is sent which is going to increase the time taken to encode and decode any data. I think also varying transmission conditions will affect the speed of transmission possibly resulting in a fluctating level latency.

This all seems to make sense but be kind on me if i'm wrong :)

[richardadc]

The weather will affect this type of signal. In normal weather it should have a ping of about 150ms. I am asuming that all of you are thinking of it having bad latency because of satallites, but they are above the atmosphere, where tele2 is on the ground. There were low flying satallites (iridium) that would of got rid of the bad pings, but the company went bankrupt, so there are burning up in the atmosphere at the moment.

[PADDYBOY]

email from tele2 support regarding latency and ping times
Dear Mark

Sorry no one get back to you. If you are using the WDSL it is same as ADSL, If you need more information for author tariff we provide pleas let me know.

Hussain Ibrahim
Technical Support
Tele2 (UK) Ltd
Tel: +44 118 923 8100
E-mail: hussain.ibrahim@tele2.co.uk
Web: http://www.tele2.co.uk

There you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. To be honest with you, I don't think that you people who "claim" to know anything about WDSL actually know Jack about it (don't take that the wrong way), you are making assumptions based on old technology. I don't even think WDSL will be around my way for a while to come yet, but it could be worth getting.

btw - weather conditions apparantly don't affect the signal as both trancievers are terrestrial and relatively close.

[Slime]

Paddyboy,

Deeps breaths there mate...1...2...3...4...I did say "surely it will have terrible latency"

as in "won't it have terrible latency"
as in "i would have thought it'd have terrible latency"
as in "you're right - i don't know for sure, but i'm not expecting it to have as low latency as a land based connection"

Now please prove us wrong and report back when you have it ?

Cheers
Slime

[PADDYBOY]

There you go - making those assumptions again - read my post again m8 - I did say that you assumptions are based on old technology - no-one actually knows what it is going to be like and I'm not even getting it !!!

Just less of the "dive straight in with both feet and assume its bad" mentallity is what we need :E

[Custodian]

OI!! stop turning my helpful thread into an argument.
Group Hug time I think :pikachu:

[[PunK]]

*PunK hugs all

Oh yeah, C_more, I'm not saying what you say is rubbish but your mobile phone doesn't have a fat metal aerial sticking out of it and it isn't usually placed at the top of your house. Wireless DSL is different anyways (you need to have line of sight, so if there is a large building in the way you can't have it.

And this is for everyone: Stop thinking mobile phones and think terrestrial TV. That's reliable isn't it? (yes I know it's not digital... shut up you're ruining my point). Anyways, tele2 keep banging on about how it's digital and isn't affected by the weather. I was talking to a guy from tele2 (he didn't sound too stupid) and he said it had an advantage over ISDN in terms of ping times, although I will be happy with a ping of around 100 or maybe just over.

By the way paddy, could you post your original e-mail to tele2. It would make the reply make a little more sense. thx.

[Slime]

:hmph:

[The Laughing Cow]

surely you would be getting attenuation and packet loss due to some of the packets not even reachnig the receiver?

[[PunK]]

I hope you're joking you stupid cow :)

[[FUNK]Doc_Toxic]

i have been talking to tele2 about there service and gaming, there reply was as follows (i think they were using the 512 service - about £40 a month - which is what you will need to get a fixed IP address to be able to use ICQ etc:

"Providing you sign up on a business tariff ( wdsl @ 34.99 or greater ) you will get a fixed IP address, therefore you will be able to use both ICQ and IRC as well as any comms programs.

Ok with reference to specific ping speeds, I have actually just logged on to Half Life and had a game. Ping speeds were around 100ms."

grrrrrrr - still don't know if i am gonna be in their coverager area (before you ask i have no chance of ASDL or cable)

can't wait to see how you get on with service - keep us posted

[[PunK]]

Doc_toxic are you saying that I won't be able to use ICQ?
According to the dsl@home FAQ they do not block any ports so i thought that was sorted out and i'm not really bothered about a static IP. BTW doc, why did you find out about the £40 business version with limited data? Was it the only one you could find out about?

Anyways, a 100 ping sounds alright and even if the home service has a lower bandwidth i don't think it will make a lot of difference. In a 12 player game of CS, This guy with cable and a 20-30 ping was getting no more than 2k in and out on the netgraph.


Richard, can you please tell me how you know that weather will affect the signal and how it will give 150 ping. If you have any proof or a reliable source please tell me. I'm mean to sound a bitch but I just don't trust your general knowledge as I wouldn't trust mine.

[richardadc]

Weather affect all signals, it is a fact, there is no way to get around this. I'm not sure how much it will affect this kind of signal, most likely it will only be to a small extent. Rain absorbs all signals, but it depends how strongly the signal is transmited. The 150 pings is a guess, but a inteligent guess.

[[FUNK]Doc_Toxic]

To be honest i dunno exactly what effects being able to use ICQ - i though it was something to do with IP addresses

Tarifs are from http://www.tele2.co.uk/sales2.html they exclude VAT, and i dunno what the max data allowance means (per hour/day/month) - i'm waitin for a reply.

Extracts from the tele2 literature/website:
1) Q. What sort of things interfere with the signal
A. Only solid objects such as trees and buildings............therefore bad weather conditions do not lead to a a deterioration of the quality of service....

This next bit is about wireless at home
2) Q. Do I get a public IP address or do you use Network Address Translation?
A. Existing users of Wireless-DSL at Home are allocated a public IP address. However as of Q1 2001, Network Address Translation (NAT) will be introduced. Business tariff users will continue to be allocated public IP addresses.

Can you use ICQ with NAT???????????????????

[[PunK]]

Actually I think you can't use ICQ *without* NAT.
I'm not really sure.

I read somewhere that the thing that stops ICQ from working isn't necessarily the blocking of ports but the disabling of port forwarding.

I presume it will be larigh tfor ICQ cos ADSL is they're both DSL (hey, that's just my logic).

Now I have to wait until monday just to arrange an installation. Hopefully it will be installed before Christmas. *crosses fingers*

[Brocken]

how are you meant to upload via wireless DSL? surely you can't transmit via the sattelite because its only a receiver?

[ybw]

Normal ICQ chatting will work fine, it't things that require a direct PC-->PC connection that wont work.
However, you will be able to send to people, the problem arrises(sp? i dont care :P) when another person wants to send to you as they can't find you behind NAT.

Andy

[[PunK]]

Can you do file transfers and stuff in ICQ then? Doesn't ICQ chat work directly between the puters and not through a server.

And by the way brocken, yes you can transmit. I don't know how but you definitely can so there isn't any dial up necessary.


Edit:

*THIS JUST IN*

http://www.net4nowt.com/reviews/broadband/stars2.pl?telewire
The fellow on the link above got it installed and is impressed. Don't e-mail him please because I have already sent him a mail asking about ping times, d/l speeds and speed variation according to time of day. If we all spam him he may not be best pleased.
And he also says that there will be a higher connection speed available later on but for more dosh. (presumably this will also have an unlimited amount of data per month)

[Edited by [PunK] on 17-12-2000 at 03:42 PM]

[The Laughing Cow]

erm (correct me if im wrong) with normal DUN you have a dynamic IP addy neway i.e you get a new IP when u dialup from the ISP's range. and ICQ obviously works on DUN connections.


brocken Wireless DSL i think is where u DL via Sat and UL via phoneline. (?)

mind im only a Cisco engineer so this aint my speciality

[[FUNK]Doc_Toxic]

i think uploading is also via wireless

"All data speeds are symmetrical, giving truly high speeds both in and out of your office and not just in one direction."

from their webbie

i think its satalite internet where you need a phoneline to upload

[ybw]

Cow - how much did the Cisco qual cost you? And was it difficult?

[Brocken]

how exactly do you upload? how do you transmit the signal?

[[PunK]]

Brocken, who knows? And, frankly, who cares? It does it and that's that. :)

Look Sattelite is where you have to dial to upload. And that gives you crap pings. With wireless DSL everything is done with the equipment they install on your roof and in you computer room and doesn't neeed dial-up. And it's 150kbps up as well as down.

And Laughing Cow, yes you are right. Having a dynamic IP address doesn't affect ICQ.

I got a respnse from the guy who already has it:

Basically, the download is capped to a maximum of 150kbps. However, they
have what's called MIR & CIR, maximum data rate (the 150kbps) and the CIR -
the guarenteed data rate which I believe is set to 0.

So, in other words... if the network is busy you get stuck right at the
bottom of the bandwidth priority list.

Pinging the default router for my subnet gives, at off peak times an average
reply of around 75ms which isn't too bad, and I've played 6 player Unreal
successfully on it.

As I say, during the evenings it's fine. On the odd occasion I'm not at work
during the day, I've noticed it being a little poor, but that doesn't really
bother me as I'm never there usually.

If you live in Leeds or Bradford, you might wanna let me know, as there are
some excellent alternatives that I know of...

75. Not bad, eh?

[ToXik-yogHurt]

There's no reason why Wireless DSL should have high latencies, its basicly a data radio transeiver system, that doesn't automatically make it slow. People have pre-concieved ideas about wireless networking because what we currantly know as 'wireless' means crappy narrow bandwidth analogue radio signals, DSL means its using digital not analogue signals, which are harder to intefere with and easier to encode/decode therefore faster. If you're out of line of site you could always buy a radio mast to put the transeiver on, you'll need planning permission though ;)
Pity BT aren't letting anyone else install DSL equipment in their exchanges yet. And damn ntl for not updating ex-C&W customers exchanges, grr have to get ADSL when I want a CM.

[Leady]

Wireless DSL you say?

Good pings as already said, but as the college student cow said the packet loss will be horrific.

The problem with digital wireless signals is that rather than the quality degrading on an analogue signal, you lose the signal. Now IP over wireless will suffer the same problems, but if you loss teh signal for an insatn, you've lost the packet....

[deejaycee]

[punk]
post a new topic when you get it all sorted m8 :)

[[PunK]]

Grrr... people keep posting saying that WDSL will be crap. You're just trying to piss me off aren't you.

I finally got another installation date arranged for Jan 3rd which is pathetic considering i ordered at the start of this month and they said they would have it installed within 20 days.

What's also really annoying is that someone I know who lives in the same town as me but on the other side (my town is quite small, nearly a village) has NTl and has just got a cable modem. I didn't even know you get get cable modems in this god forsaken place. Well, I guess I better make friends with him and visit his house.

[The Laughing Cow]

we aint saying WDSL is crap i would get it if i cud! WE ARE merely debating (excuse CAPS thats a typo)

[Custodian]

This is much better folks.
/me applauds the debate

Now we just need to find them actual users to get real feedback to replace the various speculation and suggestions. Hope you get it installed soon PunK. Then you will be the expert :)

And I don't want any of that "I told you so" when we finally find out if it works, only just works or doesn't work at all.

Play nicely :P

[[FUNK]Doc_Toxic]

anyone actually had wireless internet installed yet?

[[PunK]]

nae

3rd of Jan is my new installation date. Whether they install it on this date or not is a completely different matter.

[Slime]

Here's a few quotes from the usenet, from a user who's had the service since start of Dec :-

A quick call to customer services and they said that yes it was fixed IP / direct at the moment because the NAT kit wasn't ready till the end of January. Unfortunately I was getting to like the direct connection so I asked them if they would consider offering a 'advanced home user' . I.e. same as the business without the cost per megabyte and the higher cost . The lady on the end of the phone said she'd get back to me , which 2 hours later she did , telling me that they were planning on such a scheme , and the bandwidth would be 512k/sec.

Gripes ? If you're a hard core gamer then the latancy screws your pings up , ISDN is a better choice. However, I've had no problems playing Tribes with the settings on MODEM

Then this was in one of the replies, I think it's from someone who works for Tele2 :-

There are in fact 2 new packages to be launched in Jan.

1 - 512k off peak, 64k peak, £149 Install. £32 per month NAT (fixed IP option not yet available but we may change this if feedback is favourable)
2 - 512k all the time, £250 install then £50 per month NAT or £300 install for fixed IP
No data limits on either service.
We will also provide an upgrade path for £9.99 customers.


Anyway - It'll still be very interesting to hear from PUNK or anyone else if/when they get it installed.

Cheers
Slime