FireMesa - What Went Wrong?

[Wildfire]

Some of you may remember, shortly before I became inactive in the TFC scene, that I released a remake of 2mesaX which I creatively titled FireMesa. After a lot of testing, re-testing, re-re-testing and then a bit more testing, it went public, and promptly vanished.

When I first announced the release, a couple of people voiced on forums a few bugs which seemed slightly trivial. Some didn't like the sound effect for the sirens in the respawns, some thought the grenade bags should take a bit longer to spawn ...the usual niggles. Rather than having to add a _r or _l or something to the end of the filename (which I always felt was a sign of bad testing) I decided things would be ok and that other maps had made league status with far worse problems (openfire grenade spam, anyone?).

8 months later and 2mesa3 is still in league rotations. In a freak twist I still seem to have the final compile .map for firemesa on my machine, and I've just reinstalled worldcraft (as I will continue to call it, fricken valve).

SO.

What's wrong with firemesa? Download it here (http://www.teamshs.com/maps/firemesa.zip) and tell me. I will do my best to make the modifications people ask for, plus I'm considering tweaking the flagroom floor to remove or at least modify the pit. GO GO GO!

edit: A few screenshots, plz bear in mind that these were taken at varying stages in the map's development though. Download it for the full thing.

(1) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_0.jpg) (2) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_1.jpg) (3) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_2.jpg) (4) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_3.jpg) (5) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_4.jpg) (6) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_5.jpg) (7) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_6.jpg) (8) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_7.jpg) (9) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_8.jpg) (10) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_9.jpg) (11) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_10.jpg) (12) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_11.jpg) (13) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_12.jpg) (14) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_13.jpg) (15) (http://www.teamshs.com/wildfire/wildmesa/wildmesa_14.jpg)

[Silenced]

I remember you spamming us with screenshots in the shs priv chan.... that's about all

then along came daoc and owned you

[Dr.Tom]

yea i dont remember it ever actually being released properly, except at an i event or something ?!

[FireStorm_tfc]

What's the pit for?

What's the siren for? (can hear it through walls - a bit annoying but I aint no map maker so no complaints from me :P )

Also, is 700+ rpoly too high, as it gets jerky looking at the flag area and outside looking at the opposite base.

It is a little tricky getting out of the water in nml - or maybe that's intentional.

Other than that it looks ok to me.

[Wildfire]

- pit is to make conc jumping a wee bit easier up to the flag (think ill modify the design though, its a bit powerful atm
- siren is ambient noise
- i have to say i dont have any problems getting out of the water...
- was your PC constructed circa 1982?

[eat]

I always thought firemesa was a top update for mesa. Other peoples responses when I mention it seem to be pretty negative but I dont understand why.

I think you're right wf about 700 wpoly being acceptable. Peoples pcs should have moved on and for those who havent - tough. You cant hold back progress :)

One fear i had about the map is that people might get up to the top and cuck the flag down into the water. It looks a bit too easy to defend in that small pit. If you tell me you playtested it and this wasnt a problem I'll belive you :D

[Wildfire]

-cough- what water

[FireStorm_tfc]

Originally posted by Wildfire
.... was your PC constructed circa 1982?...

Yes, yes it was.

[Dr.Tom]

ive got a gf4 ti4600 and my fps still drops in really actiony areas on even maps like 2fort ! - random point

[Wildfire]

you have erm **** drivers then?

[Eric]

Need more signs to the cap point, or a better map description! I spent ages looking for the raised cap point before realising it was actually a wall, and near the balcony entrance not in the lobby by the fd's! Maybe I'm just stupid however :P

Also, one thing I always liked about 2mesa3 was that if you fell off into the canyon, it was a bit of a fair drop that you'd hurt bigtime falling from (even without the trigger). The drop in firemesa isn't that big (and I was kinda expecting some lava somewhere due to the name). Could you not combine a big canyon drop with an idea in concmap_csi I think (I'll try get the exact map name), that produces random screams if you miss the jumps, letting everyone nearby knowing you've just died :E

Surely TFC maps can be fun as well as serious, at the same time.

[Razz]

Add disco lights!

[Eric]

Bah, I thought I had a fairly credible idea too, Razz :P

[Wildfire]

1) Worthwhile suggestion #1 : sign by the cap point - will do. EDIT: done.
2) While the random scream thing is a nice idea, I don't have the time, as it would require a lot of entity work. My preoccupation here is making the map playable so that people can (and might) actually use it.

[Razz]

Disco lights are a sure way to get people to play your map wiffle

[Wildfire]

no.

[ParaSitius]

Spoilsport.

[Defragmentor]

The dying thing would be easy: You just need a trigger_multiple near the bottom of the pit targetting a (suitable) wav called by an ambience_generic with a fairly loud volume.

[theNiggy]

i remember running about on the map when it was first finished, and it never quite felt finished as such, I think the ladder to the top area didn't quite work right, i'll have a look in a bit, and see if I can remember what was wrong.

Oh yea, the respawns were a bit arfed, meant everyone had to take every bag before they left.

[Eric]

Oh I forgot to mention the lifts. They feel really sticky and odd. Unsure if they were specifically made that way but there's a little pause as you step on them, doesn't feel right.

[theNiggy]

right, the small slant near the top of the ladder to the top area doesn't need to be there, just means people get stuck needlessly.

There's only one resup bag in the whole map outside of fr, and it only gives health, the defence can't run to resups as they are too far away, so it means they suicide every couple of minutes to resupply, basically meaning no fun for defence.

The scale of the top route is all wrong, it's too high above the rest of the map, and just feels wrong.

the resup bag sound is too quiet, I needed to turn speakers up to full to hear it, and nearly blew the speakers out when I fired a rocket :), also 50 health in each bag means resupping for engi's is useless, added to the fact that u're going to run off the resupply edge and miss them and have to double back to get them, and get lost in the muddle of getting armour. Also both resups look the exact same, the back entrance on the original 2mesa3 was a nice idea as it was a good way to get to fr quick and gave oppertunity to enemy to get through the back way quick.

It needs to be a chasm, not a valley.

The lifts aren't sensitive all the way across, if u go into the corners they don't move, only the edge seems to trigger them.

the roof of the fr fecks up most of the concs up there,

Cap point doesn't resupply any grenades.

[Twisted]

Originally posted by theNiggy
Cap point doesn't resupply any grenades.
Neither does the original :)
Most of the faults with firemesa are faults with the original :)

[Skins]

Originally posted by Defragmentor
The dying thing would be easy: You just need a trigger_multiple near the bottom of the pit targetting a (suitable) wav called by an ambience_generic with a fairly loud volume.

Use the scream from when you fall off the edge of de_vertigo :D

[Predator]

Wasn't there something where one of the water tunnels in 1 base had water in it and in the other base there was no water in the tunnel?

Or did that get fixed?

[Wildfire]

- Will fix the slant [FIXED]
- Last time i checked, 2mesa3 was a defence-orientated map anyway - hence no patch-up bags to help you out. Of course, if people are really that fed up at not being able to sit there watching people get owned by SGs without full health and armour, then I may consider putting some more stuff in the walkway bag. I'm gonna make you go and get it though, it's not supposed to be an easy life. [PENDING TESTING]
- Stop moaning. This is not a replica of 2mesa3.
- Resup bags sound good to me...
- Back entrance? eh?
- Stop moaning about the depth of the pit ffs! I dont care about aesthetics at this point, I just want the map to play properly!
- Will fix the lifts, at the time it was a compromise between r_speeds and efficiency. Should no longer be a problem. [FIXED]
- conc more accurately [MODIFIED]
- and? Would you like me to put grens into all the bags so that people can spam them everywhere?

<bangs head on table>

[FireStorm_tfc]

Don't be so childish. You asked for answers... you got them.

[Wildfire]

Sigh. Look.

When I started on this map (over a year ago now) my objective was to take the layout of 2mesa3, make it attractive, and tweak the gameplay so that it was more accessible, balanced and flowing. That is still my objective - but now I have far less time to devote to it.

I asked for bugs. Some of what people have said have been bugs - and those have been acknowleged and fixed where possible. I don't have the time or inclination to make the chasm more chasm-like, make the upper route more like 2mesa3 because it "feels wrong". These are matters of personal opinion, which while valid, will vary from person to person to person to... etc. If people want pseudo-realism, they can play CS. Me? I want a good game of CTF.

If I'm not mistaken, the biggest complaints (they dont change with time) with TFC are as follows; 1) too much spam, 2) too many overly defensive maps, 3) too few maps that require true skill to properly master them. In response to these points I made resupplying take longer, hallways wider, put less grenades in the map, and tried to make conc jumping in the flagroom both more accessible, and at the same time requiring more skill to get maximum benefeit from.*

p.s. The water tunnel has been fixed.

* It is possible to pull off a double conc from the bottom of the ladder leading to the upper entrance, over to the window, up and/or around a SG, and grab the flag. The only way someone is going to stop you is with some really 1337 rocket work, or... well, thats about it. This is not Q3CTF, this is not UT2K3. This is TFC and on a ranting note I think it's a great shame that there aren't more maps around that dont focus on TFC-specific abilities in order to complete or at least facilitate objectives.

[theNiggy]

if everyone started the map with full health/armour, then the resup bags would only be used for resupping :)

waterfall2 had the same resup problem where u needed to grab a load of bags to get out of the resup, leaving everyone else standing around, maybe put the gren pack to the side of the resup, as where it is, it's gonna be picked up by accident alot.

2mesa3 is so defence oriented because the flags a bugg*r to get at but there's no resupplies nearby, but the respawns are alot closer than in firemesa. In this map the flag is more easily retrievable, AND the respawns are very far away, making 5 def almost compulsary, in this type of case it's one or the other, making the flag easier to get, but giving the def a resup bag with about 40h/100a/100m would give them the oppertunity of not having to suicide (there's at least 4 defenders with no resups at all right now).

Also the top route person might as well not be there now, before they had a mini resup of their own with grenades, the trade off being that the attack could use it too, now they have absolutely nothing.

[Wildfire]

Pardon me but what have grenades got to do with defence? A good soldier / HW / whatever should manage fine without them. I will _not_under_any_circumstances_ be putting grens into the top resup bag. It's totally un-necessary. I will be looking into the starting health/armour situation.

[GreyWolf]

wildfire, it's obvious ye ain't pld tfc in a while m8. 90% of sols can't do sh*t without grens, so they will moan. I'm all for reducing sols grens, they may remember that thing called a rocket launcher that way instead of shotty/gren combos.

Before anyone starts going "BUT OFFY SPAM MORE HTAN SOLS FORLAM", I think it's justified as sols have twice the armour + more health. They have a very powerful weapon and when used correctly is the best weapon in the game.

Meds using 3 to 4 grens on a sol is another matter but i cba to go into that :P

gl with map.

[Razz]

You stick to your guns wiffle!

A map where the def can't run into resp every two seconds should make things much more interesting :)

[Predator]

Water is fixed so I'm happy. :P

Don't give up on the map WF, just get the ****e sorted and release it. You know you will always get crap answers from people on this forum and flames are just inevitable(sp).

Just stick with it m8 :)

[Dr.Tom]

while your at it wiffle can we have a mort_r2 or something? :P flaginfo needs to be fixed omg !

[Defragmentor]

Tomos is right: Mort could do with a touch up as well to be honest, WF. It wouldn't take you very long, either.

A: Make FR water non-wavy-davey (killed my fps on my old comp) while still making it transparent.
B: Make attic grenbag respawn half as quickly
C: Move upper resupply over towards the lift side of attic (not THAT far over, but at least far enough where you can kill the soldier then do something other than get shot in the back as he respawns... sorta half way along the wall would be ace)
D: Make the light fixtures func_illusionaries! - so many times I've f*cked a conc in the RR/FR because of the lights on stalks getting in the way :(
E: Retexture a few bits if you can be arsed, 'cause you've aquired much better skills since making it all so long ago.

Considering mort is used in most european leagues, it would really be a good thing if you addressed a few issues with it.

[theNiggy]

mort is great as is, the attic solly is so easy to kill u can usually be conced over to flag before they get back, only bug is the flaginfo thing.

I didn't meant to put grens in the top bag, but u need more there than a bit of health, the gren bag there in 2mesa3 gave 1/1 gren and both teams could use it, so while the sol got a resup, the enemy also got one, made it an interesting position. As is right now it's just gonna be a sol who has to take 2 grens from an attacking med every 2 mins, die and rush back to position. (corridor is such that u can just spam grens down it).

[Wildfire]

Unfortunately i dont have the .map for mortality any more. However if someone reckons they can make some decent fixes to it by decompiling, contact me.

I may also consider making a mortality 2.

EDIT: I tell a lie! Guess what I just found :D
note: anyone who fails to guess correctly will owe me 1 pint of stella artois at the next LAN event I attend.

[Defragmentor]

EDIT: I tell a lie! Guess what I just found
note: anyone who fails to guess correctly will owe me 1 pint of stella artois at the next LAN event I attend.Got broccoli? :E

[ParaSitius]

Got Milk?

[Silenced]

Neither does the original
Most of the faults with firemesa are faults with the original


TWISPACK !?

HELLO!?!? YOU'RE NOT THAT STONED ARE YOU?!?!

The idea of remaking the map is to get rid of the faults the original had!

[rinseh]

I'm afraid I haven't yet DLed it so can't say for sure if this has been implemented.

But does the flag return if you fall into the pit with it? If not it should, losing a flag is harsh enough penalty without having 30seconds of useless attacking as well.

[Wildfire]

Why is it useless? You can use the time to take down an SG, get a soldier out of position, muster an attack... I may not play TFC any more but I still remember how to.

[Guntz.]

Wiffle chill with the still ok and remember any modifications must include a giant floating picture of me in nml ok

[Nero]

**** YOU WILDFIRE

[Els]

Originally posted by Guntz.
and remember any modifications must include a giant floating picture of me in nml ok

Im not sure TFC is ready for big wobbly ginger things floating around midmap.

Lo WF

F*ck off Whooten Basset man :P

[Nero]

Hey Gunter is cute, leave him alone you senile old git! :P

[Guntz.]

haha, this is true but els is cool because he has a GUN!! OMG LOL

[Dr.Tom]

guntara we cannot do that or epople will; stay in nml all map wonking duh

[Wildfire]

**** you nero you ****ing piece of ****ing ****

stupid ****.

[Nero]

OUCH

[Wildfire]

owned (again)