View Full Version : The greatest F1 driver?
Just keen to see who people think was the best.........
I`ve voted for Moss because he could win in any car, in any category, in any period of his career.
Difficult choice really. I voted Senna in the end. I think had he lived, Schumacher certainly wouldn't have his 5 titles in the bag now.
All very good drivers in that list though :)
Why isn't Prost in that list? Apart from ol' Schumi, hes the most sucessful F1 driver of all time.
I don't think Stirling Moss can really be considered the best driver of all time myself, after all he never did win a championship.
Jim Clark is certainly a contender, as is Niki Lauda. Senna is a legend and desveredly so. No Graham Hill? Schumacher Sr will go down in history as one of the best drivers ever, thats for sure. However I think Fangio is probably the best out of that lot.
scouseknight
18-09-2003, 17:10
It's a strange thing that success does not mean best whenever the subject of Forumula One drivers is brought up.
Based on success then it's Michael Schumacher by a distance, but when I watch F1, I want to see excitement - and Schumacher rarely delivers on that front unless it's wondering what he's going to do next in terms of a controversial moment.
You see that's the problem with Schumacher - always "yeah he won the titles but he did this and that".
I'm going for Senna as the greatest F1 driver - who knows what he would have gone onto achieve with Williams - after his death Williams had a period of dominance and surely he'd have been in the same position Schumacher was in last year with a perfect car and a brilliant driver to wipe the floor with everyone else.
While on one hand Senna was taken away prematurely, I also feel Schumacher was a few years too late - I would have loved to have seen those two peak at the same time - and let's be fair, a lot of the old Schumacher controversial incidents were par for the course when Senna and Prost where going head-to-head.
I wanted to keep the choices down as low as possible so as to concentrate the votes rather than spread them out over a huge list of choices.
To that end i must add that i don`t consider Alain Prost as worthy of the list, sure he was good but perhaps not the best, the same i would have to say for g hill, mansell, g villeneuve, ickx, rodriguez, perterson, - all worthy contenders if your list would stretch to them but all ultimately not "the best"
let me expand on my choices and explain why i chose them -
Fangio - he won 5 world championships. `nuff said.
Moss - perhaps the ultimate all-rounder. Moss won in f1, sportscars, rallying, he was fast in just about anything
Clark - a cut above his competitors in f1 and capable of winning in other series too, just like moss
Lauda - the outstanding driver of the 70`s
Senna - i really dont need to explain this one do i?
Schumacher - 5 world championships, `nuff said
:D
I banged Prost up there anyway for no one to vote for :P
Senna for me. Though to be honest it depends what you're asking. The greatest as in the best championship driver, the man who can set up his car fast, drive it well, know how to win world championships, be able to help the constructors etc. If thats what you're after then i'd probably (reluctantly) say Schumacher, with Prost snapping at his heels.
The other question is whos the fastest guy ever, the guy who could go out there and drive the arse off the car. Then its Senna for me. Look at his records, hes got nothing except the pole position record, something which hes still way ahead of Schumacher on despite the years. Given a lap and a car Senna could turn it on when he needed.
I'd like to see Jochen Rindt in there too. Possibly one of the most talented men to set foot in a race car. Couldn't set them up for toffee (largely why hes dead), but given a car somwhere close to set up he could drive it faster than anyone else. Still the only man to win the World Championship post-humously.
Gilles Villeneuve certainly deserves to be in there somewhere just for talent alone.
steve - i`m sure that could be considered misuse of your moderator status - i`m a BY forum mod and i wouldn`t dream of editing a post in the way you jsut have.. regardless of what you personally believe
anyhow, as you said yourself, no one is gonna vote for prost :o
Originally posted by Monie
I'd like to see Jochen Rindt in there too. Possibly one of the most talented men to set foot in a race car. Couldn't set them up for toffee (largely why hes dead), but given a car somwhere close to set up he could drive it faster than anyone else. Still the only man to win the World Championship post-humously.
History records that Ridnt`s fatal crash was likely caused by a fractured brake shaft (the bit that connects the wheel hub with the inboard brake disk) - nothing to do with setup at all but a lot to do with poor fortune or possibly poor workmanship / materials ...............
Yes, what history also shows is that he went out on a fast track having decided that he couldn't set up the rear wing properly, and so he just took the thing off, completely.
P.S. The fact that he never did up his crotch seat belt straps didn't do him any favours either.
I was just being helpful blito. I think Norphy had a valid point about Prost not being on the list and assumed you'd just missed him at the time when i edited. It's hardly misuse.
:b0rg:
You've got to love the irony of a BY official complaining about :b0rg:.
Just commenting on a couple of things. 1 Schumacher is, as well as just being damn good at winning championships, an extremely fast driver, certainly quick enough to be up there with the best ever.
After Senna died didn't Schumacher win his titles with Benneton then, ir not Williams dominance, that came a bit after, no?
Finally, the contraversial moments between Prost and Senna weren't the same as the Schumacher ones. Senna and Prose managed to take each other out racing for the same spot of tarmac, desperate to beat each other. Schumacher at least twice was beaten and deliberatly tried to take out his rival.
i always assumed they took the wing off rindts car to make it faster in a straight line :)
oh and i`m a BY forum mod for GPL.. not exactly an official.. and in anycase i post more on wireplay `cos i prefer the forum layout and i like the ppl here more too :)
and i still dont like alain prost :o
scouseknight
18-09-2003, 20:24
There's an amount of truth in that but the incidents were no better or worse.
Schumacher's Jerez 97 incident (which is the only one I blame him for 100%) was to me a desperate and stupid reactive move - as Brundle said of the incident, he hit Villeneuve's car in the wrong place. He gained nothing - got excluded from the championship, and the stigma will forever be there.
Prost and Senna put their cars where they did knowing the risk of taking themselves and their rival off, and knowing they would be crowned champion if their rival went off with them.
No punishment - times were different then.
As for Benetton - hardly call them dominant - not in the same sense as Williams with Hill and Villeneuve were (in more recent times) and certainly not like Ferrari and Schumacher were last year.
But the point stands that Senna didn't die at the time of a perfect williams car, as the Benneton was at least as good for the next couple of years.
I maintain that Schumachers incidents were both totaly different to anything that happened between Senna and Prost. They hated the idea of losing to each other so much they refused to yield in a corner (think back to the actual incidents). First time round, both refused to yield thinking they had the 1st corner... 2nd time Senna came from nowhere up the inside of Prost under braking, i'm not sure there's a driver who ever lived who would have been prepared to give him that corner.
Schumachers incidents were totally different, they were malicious. In Jerez he tried to deliberatly take JV out knowing he would win. The fact that he missed the right bit of the car is immaterial. In Australia imo was as bad if not worse. He knew he'd chucked it at the wall, saw Hill come round the corner and steered into him.
scouseknight
18-09-2003, 22:04
I do disagree about Australia - but then it's a common disagreement so nothing new here.
Jerez - stupid yes, malicious - perhaps - but more of a clumsy reaction than planned - if he planned it he would surely have taken Villeneuve out.
Senna was no saint either though - this was my point entirely.
And I didn't say Senna was in a perfect Williams did I - there was a period of dominance after Senna's death but I didn't say straight away after - if Senna hadn't have died he'd have likely been in that dominant car hence my comments on the matter.
Malicious definitly, premeditated, possibly, whats to say he didn't just miss? He knew Villeneuve was coming up as he'd had the problem for a while, he had time to think about that possibility, and he tried to take him out. He missed, but he tried it.
scouseknight
18-09-2003, 22:37
From the many reports I read around the time and since - both biased and unbiased, it is almost accepted that Schumacher did not expect Villeneuve to attack from as far back as he did.
So, this begs the question of had Schumacher expected the attempt, would he have been able to position his car to make a more "clinical" job of what he ultimately tried to do?
scouseknight
19-09-2003, 19:47
Gee that was a tough one to answer wasn't it ;)
Originally posted by scouseknight
From the many reports I read around the time and since - both biased and unbiased, it is almost accepted that Schumacher did not expect Villeneuve to attack from as far back as he did.
From more or less everything i have ever read/seen/heard on that incident i believe that to be unmitigated horse-sh*t. :)
scouseknight
20-09-2003, 22:11
Well in your opinion, which you are, of course, perfectly entitled to ;)
Although only Schumacher knows for sure whether he was caught napping or not...
In the austrailia incident, didn't he bounce off the wall and hit Hill?
Jerez was a definate attempt to take the other man out though, you saw him steering to the left
scouseknight
21-09-2003, 18:28
I actually have a .mpeg file somewhere of the Austrailia incident - I'll see if I can get it uploaded to some webspace and I'll post it on here.
I think you misunderstand me though - your making it out that I am somehow claiming Schumacher was innocent at Jerez - I am not doing that at all - it's clear he steered into Villeneuve - but the point I was making is he surely would have made a better job of what he tried had he been aware Villeneuve was challenging for the corner sooner.
I believe he turned in as soon as he realised what was happening which by then was too late to take Villeneuve off the track.
I understand the point you're making, i'm simply suggesting otherwise.
You seem to be claiming that because he didn't succeed, it can't have been pre-meditated, ignoring the possibility that he simply missed. I dont know how much they get taught about the intracacies of where to ram a car to end its race, but i'm guessing its nor required reading for the international superlicence.
I think he deliberately and pre-meditated, tried to steer into Villeneuve, but simply missed any vita part of the car, and so Villeneuve was undamaged.
scouseknight
22-09-2003, 15:18
I think we'll have to just agree to differ on this - we obviously have totally different views on the pre-meditation part of it - at least we agree it was deliberate.
it was premeditaed, deliberate, unescusable and shumacher should have recieved a lifetime ban for endangering the lives of other racing drivers
here endeth the discusion :o
scouseknight
22-09-2003, 21:18
lol blito :D
Diablos0
09-01-2004, 13:33
Something about schumacher I don't like, he's a great driver no doubts but the way he's has to win all the time like the time he was caught looking at the person who beat him's car weights and configuration, the way he always tries to push barrichello aside I mean they are supposed to be on a team, I know it's every man for himself but this guy goes a little too far no? Another factor to consider is the car as well, no denying the Ferrari car is a superb car....
pfffft, what do ferrari know about making fast cars? :/
Diablos0
14-02-2004, 19:31
Not much in F1 up until several years ago :P
Originally posted by Diablos0
Not much in F1 up until several years ago :P
not exactly true that, is it?
let me point out some of ferraris "turkeys"
500 (1952-1953) won pretty much everything for 2 years running
246 (1957-1960) took hawthorn to the title and damned nearly took one for brooks too the following year
156 (1961) in a class of its own
156 (1964) took surtees to championship glory
312T (1975-1980) 3 championship titles from 6 seasons
126 (1982-83) killed villeneuve,mutilated pironi, and still got the constructors title thanks to tambay and arnoux
640 (1989-90) just beautifu. `nuff said
after `90 though they were a bit naff untill schumie and his pals from beneton arrived en masse to sort out the problems at maranello
Diablos0
14-02-2004, 22:27
My bad? I was going on my past viewings of Ferrari, in your table the period 1984 - 1998 is missed in which they did'nt win a single constructors title, your also very quick to leave gaps like between 53 - 57, 61 - 64? 65 - 75? That's 10 years.
What happened during 1964 to 75?. Also I was'nt referring to Ferrari as utter ****e but if you look compared to say Williams and Mclaren during the period 90 - 97. Even in 1980 which I think you put down as a year that ferrari was in 'owning' the closest to 1st they came in the drivers league was 14th and in the constructors title they was 10th.
If you wanna go on about "Turkeys" as you put it try a 20 year period with no Drivers championship? (1980 ~ 2000)
As I stated above the Ferrari cars are class cars but they are'nt as invincible as people think they are.
But the great question: Car or Driver?
Diablos0
14-02-2004, 22:30
Also another point to consider for the masses of winning you seem to want to point out is surely the amount of time they have spent continuously in F1 and racing in general, I think Ferrari were started just before WWII but i could be wrong and have been in racing from at least 1950. Mclaren and the like can't have won in the 50's coz they was'nt racing. Ferrari is a team that has stayed in F1 for years.
Ayrton Senna all the way - a true F1 champion and the man that should have made his name in the sport even bigger than it is already.
On the subject of Schumacher, Jerez and Australia, he's a cheating German twat, but then again I'm a Coulthard fan so that's my fault :E
Diabloso - Enzo Ferrari was team manager for Alfa Romeo in the 1930`s and started to campaign his own cars in 1947
M8, i dont want to start a flame war on this so i wont, but i will say that my post was in response to your comment that ferrari knew very little about building fast cars until a few years ago. that statement was just not true and in your last 2 posts you`ve confirmed that you know it to be untrue.
/end discussion
Diablos0
19-02-2004, 14:07
Flame War? I'm not starting a flame war mate, just a discussion :)
Anyways way I saw it was the 20 Year gap in drivers championship kinda makes Ferrari outta the game for quite a while, that was what I was referring to mate. :)
fairy nuff :)
tbh its a shame that ferrari was so often in internal dis-array because there have been times when the car/driver combo has been spot on and yet because of internal politics they lost the title, such as in `66 when Surtees left the team just as the car was coming good enough to win, and `90 when Prost lost the battle `cos the engineering side of the team were too busy arguiing to actually develop the car... then there were the Villenueve/Pironi tragedies of `82, the in-fighting between Arnoux and Tambay in `83, when the `rari was the best car in both years.....
Diablos0
19-02-2004, 18:22
I see what you mean, look at the combo now, Schumacher is near unstoppable recently and although eventually he will be overtaken at the moment ferrari/schumacher are killing everything on the track :) On a side note 16 days till the new season (yay) :D
And does anyone else think that Sato is the unluckiest driver ever? Everytime I've seen him race his car has blown up or he's crashed... I think he's back as a racer this year as well, racing for BAR Honda I think.
I think the BAR lads look pretty good for this year..
Podium finishes are on the cards..
btw i dont know if you have already discovered this site but
www.grandprix.com has all the news as it happens..
worth checking every day for the latest stuff n nonesense.
Diablos0
20-02-2004, 16:34
Oooo have'nt seen that before thanks mate.
Maybe you should make a sticky with all the F1 sites that are updated ready for the new season :)
Deffo looking forward to this season tho, I dunno if the competition is still on but if you head over to http://www.topgear.co.uk they have a competition to win tickets to the spanish grand prix, as I say, dunno if this is still running or not...
:)
good idea with the sticky...
this aint my forum but dr octogan seems to have gone awol so i`ll see if i cant arrange said sticky myself :)
Has to be Senna - If Senna was alive now, Schumacher would've found it hard to get 2 World Championships. Senna was the God of Formula 1, and his death rocked the Formula 1 World bad. It took a good while for everyone to get over it.
Ok so yes I'm a Michael Schumacher fan... but I still think Senna would have kicked him all over the tarmac. Then threw a tyre at him for good measure.
Oh, btw, I love Formula 1. :D :cheese:
:E
Diablos0
03-03-2004, 17:41
Talkin of Senna, the race track Imola's last race is this season as they are withdrawing it from the Grand Prix line up... But on the plus side China are getting one :D
Good thing too
Now they need to withdraw the "European" Grand Prix from the Nurburgring assuming they haven't already and move that one somewhere else. Having two Grand Prix in the same country just isn't on.
with the new european arrest warrant introduced by the EU i think italy will be fortunate to retain even one Grand Prix - under italian law if a racing driver is killed in an accident then the team personel invloved in designing/preparing the car or any componant part are liable to arrest on suspiscion of manslaughter!
this very nearly happened to several key members of the Williams team after Senna`s fatal Imola crash.
As an aside - Max Mosely and Charlie Whiting have both reportedly moved from the UK to Monaco, which is outside the EU, after recieving legal advice. Many teams are also reported to have considered relocating outside of the EU.
A simpler solution would be to drop Italian races until the politians give in and grant the racing world the exclusion from the involuntary manslaughter legislation, which is what the F1 world has been seeking to acheive for many years.
Aye, read about that in the paper and nearly died of shock. How on Earth can it be the Team or the people in charge of F1's fault?! The people who run the track maybe but even so...
'Tiss a load of :poo: tbh.
Hmm... I'd be stuck between four of 'em. Because of the obvious problems in comparing drivers from different eras I don't reckon you can pick one greatest driver, so...
Moss, for his versatility. He was great whatever car he was put in, and undoubtedly would have dominated F1 in the early sixties were it not for his Goodwood accident - if he got signed up to a team with a half decent car.
Schumacher, because he's not only superbly talented in terms of raw car control, but also phenomenally skilled in knowing how to drive a tactical motor race. Also, where Fangio won his titled in established teams - Alfa, Maserati, Mercedes, Ferrari - Schumacher's won his titles in teams that were, when he joined them, not competitors for the very top spots. Read Berger's comments about getting into the B196, expecting an easy ride after Schumacher's performances in '95, and being absolutely stunned - "I'd believed it was a question of the engine and the car being far and away the best. Now I couldn't understand how Michael could have won the title. I realised just how good he was."
I'd pick Senna for similar reasons to Schumacher (excepting that last point), but as they never really raced each other properly it's impossible to compare them directly.
Finally, Giles Villeneuve (who, I'm shocked to see, isn't on that list). In my mind the most naturally talented man to ever sit inside an F1 car, with that superb 'no fear' attitude and determination. To me, his fatal accident is F1's biggest tragedy (although possibly its most inevitable).
Just out of interest, where does Mansell come in this? He may have only won one title, and that year he had the best car by far, but he still clocked up a lot of wins, poles, and fastest laps. And don't forget, in 1992 when he won the championship, he anhialated his teammate, ricardo patrese, who had exactly the same car.
Not only was he a fast driver, he could also race, unlike schumacher. He could take the car by the scruff of the neck and would try anything to win, even in an inferior car,
If its down to out and out talent, then Senna, Prost, Clark all beat Schumacher. The only good thing schumacher has done is turn ferrari back into a good team, but not without help from people behind the scenes. Its simple, for most of his career, he has been at the right place at the right time, always given preferential treatment in the team, etc.
The only way to solve this is to put them all on the track with the same equipment, but this obviously aint gonna happen.
i was a HUGE fan of Mansell`s - he always enured plenty of Drama :)
:rolleyes:
The 'only good thing' Schumacher did was build Ferrari up into a good team? He's been the class of the field for the best part of a decade, even when racing against much better cars. Anybody notice what happened to Benetton as soon as he left? I know Ross Brawn went with him, but to go from eleven wins in '95 to no wins in '96? Only on a few occasions (to my mind, only definitely in the last three years) has he had a car that's better than the others. Less natural talent than the other drivers on the list - did you sleep through the '95 Belgian GP? I know using stats to measure success of F1 drivers is always dodgy (after Moss and Villeneuve never won a championship), but 71 wins out of 194 starts, 56 poles, six World Championships and he's not one of the greats?
Mansell comes into it probably about fifty drivers down the list - I can't think of a clearer example of a car carrying the driver than the '92 season. He annihilated Ricardo Patrese? Patrese was, obviously, a good driver, but justifying Mansell as a 'great' for beating someone with six wins out of over two hundred and fifty GP starts? I hardly think that's a suitable benchmark. You're trying to imply that Schumacher's success is all down to his car and Mansell's isn't? Hmm... Run that one by me again, please?
Originally posted by AeroBob
He's been the class of the field for the best part of a decade, even when racing against much better cars.
Quite true, I never said he wasn't. Just remember, there have been other drivers who have also been the class of the field for many years, those being the ones in the list.
Anybody notice what happened to Benetton as soon as he left? I know Ross Brawn went with him, but to go from eleven wins in '95 to no wins in '96?
Are you implying that this is purely down to schumacher leaving? Yes they did suddenly go down hill, but remember the other factors. The team had a car that was little better than the previous year, while williams improved so much. The team also had new drivers, and readjusting to this was difficult for the Benetton team because alesi and berger went there expecting a good car, and didn't help when they found the car was pants.
Only on a few occasions (to my mind, only definitely in the last three years) has he had a car that's better than the others.
Ok:
1994 - Did a good job to win the championship, an underpowered car, but a fine chassis. Don't forget the last round (i know we've already had a rant about this, don't start it up again :)) where he made a very silly mistake for a driver of his ability (the pressure got to him i guess), and then decided to take damon out with him. The further fact that he still hasn't admitted that he did it on purpose is one reason why i despise him despite his obvious skills.
Also don't forget the fueling fiasco where they cheated so they could fuel the cars quicker. That ended up causing a serious fire in the pitlane. Now I know it was Wendlinger's car, but the cheat was also used by schumacher. Two cheats in one season, and you wonder why I devalue this championship.
1995 - Now they had the same engine, so it was much fairer. He did a good job of winning this one, so thats one for schumacher where he did it fair and square.
2000-2003 - I think that in all these championships he has had the best car. Maybe not outright quick on all occasions, but the ferrari has had exceptional reliability over the past 4 years, which has given them a big help. Also don't forget the times when his teammate was told to move over and let him win. Come on, if he his such a good driver, surely barrichello shouldn't be that hard to pass. Well, if he had guts like mansell he would get past the proper way ;) :p
Less natural talent than the other drivers on the list - did you sleep through the '95 Belgian GP?
Yes, i'm going to stick by this one. I believe that drivers like Clark and Moss had it so much harder. With less emphasis on the car, these drivers still shone, proving these drivers to be exceptional, rather than just very good drivers in equally good cars. The safety back in them days was almost none existant, the driver needed balls of steel! :D
I can't believe you didn't expand that argument to schumacher's great wet weather ability. But my counter would simply be the fact that, yes good in the wet, but I still think that senna was the undesputed wet weather king. Donnington '93.....in the words of blito 'nuff said :D
six World Championships and he's not one of the greats?
Oh dear, what did I say? no really, when did i say he wasn't one of the greats? With the success that he has had, no one could say he isn't one of the best, i'm just saying that he shouldn't be thought of as the best. There are other drivers that, just becuase there not in everyones minds, shouldn't be cast aside.
Mansell comes into it probably about fifty drivers down the list - I can't think of a clearer example of a car carrying the driver than the '92 season. He annihilated Ricardo Patrese? Patrese was, obviously, a good driver, but justifying Mansell as a 'great' for beating someone with six wins out of over two hundred and fifty GP starts? I hardly think that's a suitable benchmark. You're trying to imply that Schumacher's success is all down to his car and Mansell's isn't? Hmm... Run that one by me again, please?
Ok, here I was just putting my personal favorite down. But I still stick by my belief that Mansell was a better racer than schumacher, not faster or better outright, but when you watched mansell drive you knew you were in for a treat, the type of driver not afraid to go wheel to wheel with other drivers.
Don't forget that mansell was competing with some of the greats listed up there, and still managed to hold his own. Schumacher has yet to face a driver that is as good, and while having the equipment to match. Had the road to himself, so to speak.
TBH not listing Mansell was an oversight on my part...
As for Villeneuve, well if Gilles was there then i`d have to put Ronnie Peterson in too, and Pedro Rodriguez, and Alberto Ascari and dozons of others too and that would devalue the votes if there were too many options..
As for the argument between Bob and Skel here, you both have valid points, Skel`s original post wasn`t really fair on Schumi, so bob scores a point, but skel`s reply is pretty well thought out so he draws a point back.. all even on that one.. who`s next on the schumi debate?
for my ten penneth, i can`t stand him but that`s probably because i dont like to see ppl do too well for themselves..
6 titles? pft the fool should have retired into safety years ago instead of risking his very life when he no longer needs too..
let someone more charasmatic have a crack at the silverware for once!
tbh,,
Schumi is a great driver but i still shout with joy everytime something goes wrong for him... there are times when you just need a bad guy to depsise!
Diablos0
07-03-2004, 21:26
Ah Blito! I love you! I get annoyed at schumacher only recently over a few things but one of the main reasons is the way he conducts himself. I mean you've seen him bitch about tyres when he had no need to really, just because it was'nt going his way, I can gaurntee that if he was using them tyres he would have said nowt. As it is I've also seen him peering at competitors set ups during after race check in's which to me indicates bad loser. What about the times he's clipped people which almost certainly look like purposly? That season where he clipped Hill and took the championship by 1 point (1994 I think). Things like that don't look good to me when I see him win and say stuff like 'The car is great and I pushed hard' when he's clearly cheating his lying ass off :)
What about when those blokes pushed his car back onto the track when he span off, I could've sworn nobody else got that treatment and there was a big hoo haa about it. Anyways I can't deny the set up he's got now is great and he has'nt resorted to pushing people off track recently so I gotta hand it to him and the ferrari team.
Burtoner
07-03-2004, 21:33
i didnt have a chance to vote, but i would go with senna he was god if not better lol.
Originally posted by Diablos0
Ah Blito! I love you! I get annoyed at schumacher only recently over a few things but one of the main reasons is the way he conducts himself.
Blito and diablos0 sum it up well. How about the time, spa 98, when he ran into the back of coulthard when lapping him, then having the nerve to go and confront him in the pit lane.
I mean, you just don't do that. Hill didn't, Villenueve didn't, and them occasions were in a championship deciders. Schumy lost his head when it was clearly his fault, DC was just miding his own business. Then saying that DC slowed down on purpose :rolleyes: DC couldn't have seen him coming to slow down the spray was that bad. When the telemtry proved DC didn't slow down I think schumy apologised and accepted it, but thats still too late for me. Just another reason I don't class him as the best. The best should also be a good sportsman, which schumacher can NEVER be, the hole is just to big for him to climb out of, however nice he acts now.
That's the reason I prefer Schumacher to Montoya. If Schumacher's been outdone he usually has the good grace to say that he's been outdone - if he cocks up, more often than not he'll say he cocked up. Montoya, on the other hand, will blame (in no particular order); the tyres, the car, his opponent's car, the yellow flags, the pit stops, the weather, his cat, Schumacher's cat, the guy who squeegeed his windscreen on the way to the race, etc etc.
Skel - no, I wasn't implying that it was purely down to Schumacher leaving - that's why I commented about Ross Brawn - but that it's a hell of a change in form, and that in my opinion Schumacher played a large part in that. As you say yourself, the car was underpowered - and I don't think the Benetton got notably worse from '95 to '96 - Schumacher's skill did a good job of carrying that team.
'If he had guts like Mansell he'd do it the proper way'. '92 - Patrese moved over every time he was in the lead until Mansell secured the championship. Then, at Suzuka, Mansell moved over and let Patrese through to say thanks for doing the same for him all season. Which, by the way, made Patrick Head's criticism of Schumacher letting Barichello through at Indianapolis all the more ridiculous.
'I believe that drivers like Clark and Moss had it so much harder.' So you're saying Schumacher can't be as good a driver as Moss and Clark because he's around forty years after them? I don't follow the logic, personally. Are you saying that if Clark was a racing driver now and showed the same driving characteristics he wouldn't be great because he had a safe car?
I don't think anybody's claiming Schumacher is the best. Personally, I think it'd be pretty stupid to try and call any one driver the greatest ever - but I can't see any reason not to rank him as one of the most skilled drivers along with people like Moss, Clark, Senna and Fangio.
Originally posted by AeroBob
That's the reason I prefer Schumacher to Montoya. If Schumacher's been outdone he usually has the good grace to say that he's been outdone - if he cocks up, more often than not he'll say he cocked up. Montoya, on the other hand, will blame (in no particular order); the tyres, the car, his opponent's car, the yellow flags, the pit stops, the weather, his cat, Schumacher's cat, the guy who squeegeed his windscreen on the way to the race, etc etc.
I agree with you there, montoya is someone who can really twine when things aren't going right, makes schumacher seem a little better. I reckon that drivers like alonso and raikonnen can also be in the list, if we did it in 10 years time. I like them because they just keep there mouths shut, and let there driving do the talking. I think most will find them hard to hate :)
'If he had guts like Mansell he'd do it the proper way'. '92 - Patrese moved over every time he was in the lead until Mansell secured the championship. Then, at Suzuka, Mansell moved over and let Patrese through to say thanks for doing the same for him all season. Which, by the way, made Patrick Head's criticism of Schumacher letting Barichello through at Indianapolis all the more ridiculous.
I remember the 92 season extremely well, didn't miss a race. He may have been in the best car, but the stats read like schumachers have done some years. 14 out of 16 poles. 9 wins, 3 2nds, and 4 dnf's. Pretty impressive, even if he had the best car.
Don't forget his move to indy the year after, where he also won the title, at the first try. Quite versitile if you ask me.
'I believe that drivers like Clark and Moss had it so much harder.' So you're saying Schumacher can't be as good a driver as Moss and Clark because he's around forty years after them? I don't follow the logic, personally. Are you saying that if Clark was a racing driver now and showed the same driving characteristics he wouldn't be great because he had a safe car?
Ok, clark and the like faced more danger. We can't change this, its just how it was. It would be interesting if we could :) Believe me, there is nothing as hair-raising than the full nurburgring in a 400bhp iron bath tub :P and i'm refering to a computer game. Now all the tracks have been made 'safe', a lot the thrill has gone. To see a modern formula 1 race at the full nurburgring would make my day. I'm running a little OT, but bring back the proper circuits, fast corners and even faster straights, take out all the silly chicanes. Thats what F1 needs, remove some of the silly regulations.
I don't think anybody's claiming Schumacher is the best. Personally, I think it'd be pretty stupid to try and call any one driver the greatest ever - but I can't see any reason not to rank him as one of the most skilled drivers along with people like Moss, Clark, Senna and Fangio.
This thread is simply about who we believe is the best. All just people's opinion. I do agree its pretty silly to say for certain that one driver is the overall best. The idea of the sport is to find the best for that year. Its impossible to take a best from statistics, there are to many variables. I do have my reasons, though, why I think schumacher is not the best.
But we are just putting our view forward, and I have done that :)
Diablos0
08-03-2004, 02:04
Good Points, but still Schumacher is definatly not my best driver of all time. Many, many, many people would say he was just because of the 6 or so seasons he's had. But time will change this and I reckon ferrari will eventually fall just like McLaren did.
As I've said before, if Senna was alive Schumacher would be lucky to have 1 World Championship. Senna 0wned all. :)
No doubt in my mind that it has to be Jimmy Clark. For obvious reasons.
Clark was rather special wasnt he - on his day he was just untouchable.. and he had many such days.
Blackreign
13-03-2004, 21:30
Im with Blito "i was a HUGE fan of Mansell`s - he always enured plenty of Drama"
Gota say he was da man!!
Blackreign
13-03-2004, 21:32
oh I voted orost... just cause he looked lonely
lol
i could always edit that out if you want to change your mind
might be worthwhile replacing lauda with mansell too tbh
ok i`ve edited the poll
swapped the apparantly unloved Lauda for Mansell and changed blackreigns and my own votes to mansell
if anyone else has a change of mind following all this discussion i can edit that in for you
Burtoner
28-03-2004, 17:00
Originally posted by ssmmdd
As I've said before, if Senna was alive Schumacher would be lucky to have 1 World Championship. Senna 0wned all. :)
yup i agree totally.
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