View Full Version : General UTT2 Discussion
Please use this thread to discuss any and all things to do with UTT2.
Kev, why not shift the stuff from the PCT to here. Most of that is on UTTii anyway. Anything on the original (NWV hall of fame, current, classic, ready salted) module tends to be discussed in the feedback and suggestions thread.
Aw --- my little VALAR thread is going to fade away now.
The PCT content stuff could be shifted here but it would be nice to keep an 'interest' thread, with things like the valar, all the language stuff. The non-games side tolkien intrest things I mean.
The PCT thread is all about stuff thats actually being done by the PCT. This thread is just for ideas and discussions on how/what things should run in UTT2.
Now get talking :P
I know Bree is more or less an done deal barring anything showing up as a bug (fingers crossed nothing will), but would a town Mayor, or govenor be a daft idea. Harry doesnt seem the leader type an Barlimann's much to busy :) Might be a good source for quest material in the future and DM run stuff too.
Talen Greymarck
05-10-2004, 03:41
A couple of suggestions for UTT2:
- Has there ever been any consideration for the negative hitpoint guidelines set forth in the 3rd Ed. rules? I've often thought that it would be a nice addition to the world to be able to have players knocked "unconscious" with a chance of being healed before the -10hp death.
- I'd really like to see functional guards in the neutral cities. There have been a couple of confrontations between my good aligned character and evil characters all in the name of good roleplay, within the cities. The evil characters have given no regard to the consequences of battle, even when they are surrounded by an entire city's guard, because they know there will be no punitive action in response to their attack. I've tried to rollplay this by saying something to the effect of, "You'd be a fool to raise your hand against me here in front of the guard.", to no effect. In addition, will the guards in good (or lawful evil) aligned cities crack down on characters that initiate hostilities there? It sure would be nice.
- I'd like to see something creative implemented to prevent the proliferation of high epic-level characters. What I see right now are many epic level characters just roaming the world, randomly killing monsters, stirring up seemingly pointless trouble (in a social/political sense that affects the game world), and once in a while leading a party. I like to level up my character as much as the next person, but it would be great to see high epic-level characters be assigned responsibilities in the world comensurate with their abilities. For instance, maybe there could be a rule put in place that says lvl 30+ characters must be leading a party, organizing an "event", or some such thing at all times. Maybe we could say that epic lvl 30+ characters need to get DM/development team approval for a "role" that they will play in the world before they are allowed to continue to play these characters. This could then be documented somewhere so that lower level characters would know who these other characters are, giving them the notoriety they should have with their exceptional abilities. There are a million ways to pull this off, this may not necessarily be the best way to do it. Just wanted to offer a solution or two.
Those are interesting ideas.
But if the guards 'intervened' in PvP then it would never happen. Neutral towns are the best place for good n evil characters to meet. You can meet on the road, but people spend TIME in towns. Is what you are saying it would mean that if you landed the 1st blow against an evil character you would be attacked by the guards and vice-versa, or just if an evil character did it. It would mean that the guards AI would have to be radically re done (with all the potential probs that that entails), and all kinds of insignificant things (like various spells, harmless pranks, pick-pocketing, etc) could be misconstrued as hostilty and result in the perp lying dead. A DM taking control of a guard would be the answer there i think. :)
As far as the 'must lead a party' tag on high level 30+ characters. That would entail the character being bombarded by tells from low level characters wanting to level-up, which is illegal. The player would be unable to play his favourite character unless there was a party of compatible 25+ levellers online, which isn't often. And if he wanted to solo, he couldn't.
Im confused about what you are saying regarding the 'stirring up of trouble' in a socio-political sense. And what are monsters there for if not to be killed. heh heh. :P
As to assigning them a role in the gameworld. They do that themselves. The good characters protect the weak, the evil ones offer a threat. To assign a fixed role outside the role-played background is to totally limit the character. Im sure that you would not want that to happen to your character when he/she is 30+. ;)
I agee that if the character is a particularly interesting one, famous or infamous, or fits in with Tolkien's world especially well, then documenting them, in some way is a nice touch. Its sort of a thank you for their RP. This is kind of happening already. I have seen numerous copies of 'The Silverswords' tome, documenting the history of that illustrious guild and it founders. :D
Has there ever been any consideration for the negative hitpoint guidelines set forth in the 3rd Ed. rules? I've often thought that it would be a nice addition to the world to be able to have players knocked "unconscious" with a chance of being healed before the -10hp death.
Never really thought of that myself. Could be worth considering though if we could get it to work.
I'd really like to see functional guards in the neutral cities.
This is one of the features already in UTT2 and worked well in the first test we ran. Every city/region now has its own faction, which all the main npcs to that area are a member of - commoners, merchants, quests givers, guards, etc. Each faction has a relation to the main factions. I'll provide some details on factions below:
(Note this is NOT the completed faction range - the following are just listed to provided a few examples)
PC Factions:
PC GOOD - This is set on good/neutral PC's.
PC EVIL - This is set on Evil PC's
NPC Factions:
The following are friendly to Good/Neut:
Good - Gondor
Good - Rivendell
Good - Lorien
Good - Erebor
Good - Silvan Elves
Good - Rohan
The following are friendly to evil:
Evil - Dol Guldur
Evil - Mordor
Evil - Dunland
Evil - Isengard
Evil - Harad
Evil - Easterlings
The following are friendly to both good and evil:
Neutral - Bree
Neutral - Tharbad
Neutral - Esgaroth
Neutral - Forochel
Neutral - Shire
So each city is a subfaction of the primary good/evil faction. If an evil character were to annoy a evil npc, all the npcs in that area would be hostile, but those in other evil regions wouldnt.
But to answer the main part of your comment - guards will now react against 'trouble makers' in any city as all members of a city/region are of the same faction.
I'd like to see something creative implemented to prevent the proliferation of high epic-level characters.
I can what your getting at here and I largely agree. One thing im always a little dubious about is epic characters 'having' to be the leader just because they happen to have more than 20 character levels. Sure, a powerful character makes a good leader, but other factors come in - what if this character has an intelligence of less than 9 and is unable to read or speak properly? In some situations, this would not make him/her an appropriate leader.
Now, one of the things that can plague the curent version of the module from time to time is the fact that high level/epic characters are running around the world and completing quests designed for much lower level characters, or worse, creating scattered parties just to farm quest xp rewards from different areas.
UTT2 has already put a stop to this:
Every single quest will have a special character level check scripted into the dialouge line which flags the quest as 'started'. For example, all the Bree Lands quests now have a maximum permitted character level of 5 on most of its quests, with 7 for the barrow downs quest.
Another current problem is that at present, there is a lack of activity for epic characters, so things can get repetitive. One of the goals of UTT2 is to provide plenty of activity for epic characters. This is good news for those who like to follow the plots of the war, or sack an area from time to time - we are going to introduce settlements. These will be small cities with no important titled npc's in them, but serve as a nice rp implement for those who want to play out the 'pillaging bands of orcs' for example, and good/neutral characters could perform a role of defending these settlements.
It is our intention that this be in the control of the players, so no DM supervision will be required when it comes to settlements.
So with all that, it is hoped that epic characters will have plenty to do and wont spend as much time shadowing low level characters and generally being more of a hindrance than a help.
I'm glad to hear that there will be mroe activities for epic characters, cos I have to admit I hardly ever play mine now. I have a look to see who's online - basically to see if the Anvil is likely to be open. If I think it may be I take my epic on for the RP that always ensues in there. This will often culminate in the Dwarves undergoing some quest - maybe the Iron Hill lizards, Smaug or if there a fair few epics and a DM on a faction invasion. Otherwise I tend to play my lower level characters - mainly so I'm not tempted to have my epic run around doing easy quests, or be plagued for help by lower levels.
Howay Lolinus, lets get bladdered and go hit summat... *Veld hiccups and goes back to sleep in a puddle of ale*
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Talen, looks like Kevs got yer stuff covered mostly. :)
The negative HP idea could be a goodun. Means that the fallen copanion isnt dead. It can happen so frequently that it take the drama out of RPing a fatality in the party cos it normally isnt permanent. Never in a party well stocked with scrolls.
Maybe we need a flask of Miruvor to revive the concussed comrade.
I've seen the nagative HP thing worked on other servers, so it is possible. Its especially good in those lower levels when you have no raise scrolls, but do have access to healing kits. You feel so helpless when someone falls and you can't save them, but it would give you a small window of opportunity.
I think where I saw it done, each round rolled a fortitude test for you, if you failed you lost 1 more hp, if you passed you stablelised for the round and wouldn't. Once you reached that -10, then you were dead and needed to be raised or respawned.
As I said it gives lower levels parties a bit more chance, and theres a certain drama to knwoing you companion is bleeding to deat and you have the option of turning to heal them, knowing that you might die as yu do so, or praying that they stablelise enough whilst ou finish off the enemy.
As Talen said it is in the 3rd Edition rules. Actually its been a part of AD&D as long as i can remember (gosh, thats a long time), and I think it was included for the very reason you state, drama. And realism. Only a DEVASTATING wound would kill outright. Other wounds would be fatal, just not immediately. It would also give characters a reason to give a damn about their fortitude saves. At the moment, I think, most dont.
--- How about a new item - Tourniquet, sucessful Heal skill to use, forestalls bloodloss indefinately, or something.
--- Or use ONE heal kit to stop the bleeding, then ANOTHER to bring up the hp. (The first kit does no actual healing).
--- Makes being in negative hp, and at deaths door, more of a healing challenge. Which it should be.
--- Gives the party healer more to think about too, more RP emphasis, and more responsibility.
--- Perhaps only characters with Heal above a certain skill level can tend to characters bleeding to death, like a qualified surgeon or medic would.
--- Dying characters may not need to be unconcious but merely utterly helpless. Gives em a chance to utter a few last well chosen words, like : "My body is broken, I go to my fathers, and even in their mighty company, I shall not now feel ashamed..." *then pegs out*
actually, as a point of interest, you go to negative HP now anyway under certain circumstances. My DD went to negative and died (obviously) when his Defensive Stance ended and CON dropped to normal. That would be an appropriate time to be exhausted and unconcious rather than dead dont ya think. Suppose the slowly dying thing can even work under those conditions, the exertion and strain could have brought on a stroke or something. Or like old Flint Fireforge in Dragonlance, the old boy dropped dead of a heart attack.
I would say you want to be careful about limiting certain heal skill to be able to be able to tend a dying character. This is as I said before, one of the good things about the negative hit points is it allows low levels to rscue one another - if in time. If they are unable to due to not having enough heal skill, then they gain nothing from this. However the DC could be high enough to make it very challenging in combat, and not easy out of combat. (Unless of course you are someone with a sufficient heal skill). Also the other question is - can a clerics healing spells recall someone from the brink?
Good Point. In theory yes. but wouldnt it be good if 2 spells were neccessary, like 2 heal kits in my above example. Or if they only had one CLW prepared they had better have a heal kit ready too. heh heh.
I think that some action to stabilize the character and prevent further bloodloss is a realistic option. Then a second action to restore HP to get them up and fighting again, be it healing lay on hands, or spells in either case. Being below 0 hp is "almost needing a ressurrection", so it shouldnt be treated as trivially as a couple more HPs to heal.
Could it be nerfed so that the first heal spell/kit used on a dying character only ever restores them to 0hp or 1hp perhaps.
Talen Greymarck
05-10-2004, 18:16
Thanks for the civilized responses guys. I guess I'll have to get used to that being the norm around here. I'm so used to getting flamed that I haven't posted on any BB in years, besides this one.
Fasin - Good points about PvP. I think conflicts would still happen, but as you said they would be less frequent in cities with a guard. But, after all some characters are powerful enough to defeat any attacker and the city guard as they “get out of dodge”. In neutral cities I think any hostile action ought to be punished by the guard, otherwise why have a city guard? Just get rid of the guard if we want to encourage lawless actions. I think that the rule ought to be that where there is a guard the initiator of hostile actions should be punished, regardless of the city's faction in relation to the character's faction. Evil cities/faction areas seem like good places to have guards that don't care about lawlessness, unless the area is emphasizing lawful evil or some such thing. Just my opinion. Like you said, it may turn out to be a bad idea in the end for facilitating PvP. It is just something that we’d have to try to know for sure. However, I think functional guards are consistent with Tolkien's world.
Fasin – As for the epic level characters, you’re right. My suggestions may not be good ones. I just slung them off the top of my head to be proactive in my original post. My point was mainly that epic level characters ought to be doing epic level deeds, not just hunting the standard monsters all the time. They should be doing something that is meaningful to the world, or at least that provides some sort of enhancement to the game world through their actions. They should be “above” the ho-hum of looking for more exp and gold all of the time and contribute in a meaningful way. What the best way to do this is, I do not know. But I’d love to help find a good way to do it.
I agree with what has been said in response about the -10hp. I think it would be a worthwhile feature for RP purposes and would benefit the lower level characters especially. It might encourage party play as well, because with others by your side you’d stand a chance after being knocked down between 0 and -10hp. I always thought this would be more consistent with the realism presented in Tolkien’s world than the instant death at 0hp in place now. The only thing is, it shouldn’t take too long to die once you go down. It could be frustrating to sit there for some time waiting to die if you’re alone.
On the taking forever to die, what I also saw happen on the server which had the -10 hp rule was that, if there were no actice opponents then whatever was there would execute a 'coup de grace'. This effectively means that when you solo, you get finished off quite quickly, but the creature AI meant that they'd only attack a downed character if there wasn't an active character to deal with. Don't know how easy this is to do, but it would solve that problem.
Maybe we could introduce lawless frontier towns. MERPs verion of Tombstone, maybe out on the eastern edge of Rhovanion where western cultures meet Rhun.
While Ive looked at the Erebor stuff recently, I was thinking of quest threads that involve interaction with plainsmen/nomads in a frontier style town out on the steppes. The Dwarves make the metalware and trade with the easteners for superb hide/leatherwork. I dont mean Easterlings in league with Mordor, Im thinking much further north, somewhere SE of the Iron Hills.
The place would govern itself, no guards... Locals wouldnt care why a bunch of foolish wandering foreigners wanted to kill each other in the street, and wouldnt take a blind bit of notice unless they were attacked themselves... It would othrwise count as a Neutral town from a faction standpoint...
Swordfight at the OK Corral... Yee Haaa
Greetings Fellow Gameplayers, Avalyn here. EVIL TYRANT OF DEATH!
But enough about me you crazy cats, more about the work im involved in, namely, my role as your lord....ok, maybe Master of the Classes (no jokes). It is my role, to 1. Design Classes. 2. Create said Classes. 3. Test said Classes. and 4. Hand Out said Classes for general usage.
Now, heres where you lucky lucky people come in, I'm a nice guy...when I want to be, so Im giving you the oppurtunity to give your input. Name suggestions, ideas, whatever.
So far, and this is like a bare bones few tests, there are prestige classes named; 1. Ranger of the North, Wise Rangers of the lands of Middle Earth, Dunedain of origin. 2. Black Numenorean, Evil men opposed to the Eldar and Valar, with a great hatred of the men of Gondor. 3. Dwarven Axemaster, masters of the dwarves chosen weapon, the axe.
These are the product of a few days research, more days work, (hour per file at first, erk.) and one lonely persons lack of the Internet. Many things need to be done regarding this project.
So anyway, your part. If you want to give any input regarding new prestige classes, new feats, any current class modifications, etc... this is where you can say, and I will listen and maybe if youre lucky, it shall be implemented.
Also note. HiPS has been modified. That is all.
You mention a Dwarven Axemaster, will this be for Dwarven Waraxe, Battleaxe or an option of either?
I think an option of either (possibly including Greataxe as well) would be better, otherwise all dwarves could end up with the same weapon.
ghost : Don't we anyway? :D
Rangers pf the North - how could we not have them - its what inspired the Ranger class in the first place. Glad to see em with their right name at long last.
Rangers of Ithilien - Gondor’s secret soldiers east of Anduin
A force of the soldiers of Gondor, selected from the descendants of the people who had dwelt in Ithilien before it fell from Gondor's control. Dressed in camouflaging green and brown, they crossed the Anduin in secret to harass the forces of the Enemy in Gondor's old domain.
Another really obvious one. Maybe they could follow the same lines as those of the north (standard rangers?) but with more of an emphasis on steath and skirmishing, rather than tracking and animal kinship (Ok thats a bit arbitrary, but it would be nice to make them slightly different).
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Bits n pieces - all totally vague, just thinkin with me typing fingers
--- Animist - in the ICE modules the Animist was like a hedge wizard, a shamen. Suppose in NWN that wiuld be a Druid.
--- March Wardens - Men of the Mark who guard the byways of Rohan (guessing here, but sounds right and isnt too elite a rank). Without horses, Riders of Rohan seem frankly daft.
--- Marshalls of the Mark - the highest military rank of the Rohirrim.
--- Wose Hunter/Warrior, Shamen - no heavy armour, but good dodge, stealth and natural armour. Near invisible in woodlands.
--- Forodwaith - Barbarians of the north, Lossoth warriors
--- Shirriffs - shire policemen. Roadwardens
--- Burglar - Bilbo in the Hobbit was referred to as such
--- Tinker - not sure but had an idea for a halfling or dwarf class involving crafting as a prime skill.
--- Orc Maurauder
--- Uruk-hai Berzerker
--- Cook/Gardener (dont laugh) - Herbalist, healer. Fighter with a touch of cleric/druid perhaps.
Champion ot Torm variants --- Champ of Aule (Dwarf CoT), Guardian of Nimloth (white tree of gondor). Perhaps the term Oathbearer would work.
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still thinkin :rolling:
Galdor_Niphredil
06-10-2004, 00:01
Rangers of Ithilien
Yeah, now wouldnt that be cool. Creating Ithilien with the rangers base behind a waterfall at Henneth Annûn (Window onthe West/of Sunset)and the Forbidden Pool....
What About including Shirriffs of the Shire?
From what I've read about these they were the hobbit equivalent of a protectors group (kind of a predecessor to a police force style group).
According to RoTK there where alot of these shirriffs and they had Shirriff-houses as their base in many of the villages. Might be an idea for a class or as a base for setting up a guild in the Shire.
cross post hahaha
Ornëmeldi - Tree friends (or lovers of trees) perhaps we could call Elf Druids this? Actually given the long history elves n trees "Awakeners" was what I was trying to translate.
Ornëquendi - speakers of trees (sort of)
Taurëquendi - speaker of Forests
strugglin a bit
I was going to make a Shirriff class to be honest, its on my list :)
Nice suggestions guys, keep em up, you never know, you might see em in the game when they are all done.
Galdor_Niphredil
06-10-2004, 00:45
and not forgetting Elven bowmaster of course hehe
might make sense to narrow down the races and subraces and what their strengths and weaknesses are going to be. That would help with classes. a lot of classes in middle earth would tend to be race specific. Its the archetypical fantasy world and its characters are also archetypes. Like elf archers, dwarf axemen, rangers of the north etc.
Already being done :) We will be reviewing all classes one by one so that they are much more representative of our system and intended design.
Barâkuzbad - dwarvish for Axe Master ("axe lord") close as i can make it. :)
Gurukhazadul - dwarvish for "Shield of the Dwarves"
Khahamgarûkh - "Clanguard"
or Khazadulgarûkh - "Dwarfguard" - either would do for Dwarven Defender
Guldur - is black magic in the Black Speech. What do we need to add to that to make Black Magician? anybody?
Guldur-hai - perhaps Black Magic Folk... dunno
Trying desperately to find a suitable term for Arcane Archer for our Elven buddies out there.... Galdor *looks pleading*
The Galadhrim were rangers of Lorien, but im trying to find something that would suit any elf kindred.
I don't know much about online NWNs so if these things sound stupid don't flame me I'm just new.
Here are some things I would like to see:
- Home ownership: my char is getting sick of being homeless. Just becuase I was kicked out of my homeland doesn't mean I can't buy a place in Tharbar!
- Guilds: reading these posts I found out there are 2 guilds, I had no idea before as they are not advertised... I will seek them out to find out more
- Bank: My char sometimes has over 100k in cash on him... not a wise thing, I would love a banking system I can deposit too (or a home vault!)
- Combining potions: Dunno if this is possible but why can't you pour 2 potions into one bottle and make your own custom potion? I regularly use 6 different potions to buff up, would love to bring this down!
- I always wondered why you can't ride buy a horse to ride long distances with, that would be so cool! :) (probably not something you can do but still I like it)
My your swords ever strike true,
Altan
Home ownership: my char is getting sick of being homeless. Just becuase I was kicked out of my homeland doesn't mean I can't buy a place in Tharbar!
Its a possibility, but I can't make any promises any time soon that this will be in. I'd want a system where it doesnt get out of control and there are a lot of other things that hit the top of the 'to do' list before this one.
Guilds: reading these posts I found out there are 2 guilds, I had no idea before as they are not advertised... I will seek them out to find out more
We plan to have several guilds 'ready' in the world when it goes online.
Bank: My char sometimes has over 100k in cash on him... not a wise thing, I would love a banking system I can deposit too (or a home vault!)
We occasionally have had this request every now and again over the last 18 months :P The answer is always no im afraid :P As we see it, banks are more trouble than they're worth and in terms of the design of the world and the system we are using (even more so with our new game system), banks really will not be required.
Combining potions: Dunno if this is possible but why can't you pour 2 potions into one bottle and make your own custom potion? I regularly use 6 different potions to buff up, would love to bring this down!
We could look into how or if that could be done, but were only talking 18 valuable seconds to down 6 potions :P
Horses are unlikely to be seen for some time after UTT2 goes up (we would like to have them). The only Hak we are prepared to use in the meantime will be CEP and the MERP PRC - our own prestige class system we are working on.
Note that the MERP PRC will be a TINY Hak file players must download. It will probably be no larger than 1mb.
On the topic of horses and prestige classes, I'd really like to see a Riders of Rohan prestige class. The lack of horses in NWN/CEP is a pity, but until some future update takes care of that, you could keep true to their nature by making Animal Empathy a class skill or so (since they were great horse tamers).
Great idea with Tolkienized prestige classes by the way, hopefully this will mean a greater variation of classes among players, and I for one belong to those ol' fashioned folks who would rather see more middle earth and less (highfantasy) d&d.
I had an idea for a new type of Arrow for UTT2. As our world seems to have its fair share of skeletons and the like how about the possibility of a fowling blunt type arrow. These actually exist, and rather than a pointed arrow they have a round, hardened end. They were mainly used when hunting game to knock a bird out of the sky without ruining the meat part of the bird.
In game terms they would be an arrow that does bludgeoning damage rather than piercing - making them particularly effective against skeletons, whom, if I remember correctly, have a natural DR against piercing attacks.
Easy enough to do; i'll knock out some D6 Blunt arrows.
*gets to work on class type stuff*
They are all mine, and no one gets to use them except me, muahahahaha....ok, ill probably get bored anyway...
lol...one of my first posts here was about having a blunt type arrow for killing skeletons, nobody thought it was good idea then...
i've a question about Prestige classes...how do you make new ones? is it all about scripting or the arcane art of using the toolset?
i've always wondered how its done...
I could be wrong here but will blunt arrows actually do anything at all?
I thought the damage mechanic for physical damage was always bugged in nwn (much like if you had a longsword - base type slashing with say a +5 enchantment and +2D6 slashing, it wouldn't add on the +2d6 only the +5) so whatever physical damage bonus you add it continues to count it as the weapons base type, in the arrows case it would still be piercing and would work exactly the same as a +1d6 piercing arrow.
Unless of course you can change that arrows base damage type to blunt? as well as a bludge. bonus.
Might do some tests on this if I get the time, its something I've read a few times but never really tested myself fully.
Cheers
Wreck
Hmm good point. However just an arrow that did d6 bludgeoning, maybe with a bonus against skeletons would do the trick. Wouldn't really want anything too powerul, just somthing an for archers to fire at skeletons.
Well d6 would be the max for any type of arrow under our new system as arrows will count as small weapons for our variable damages based on weapon size. Larger weapon = larger dmg bonus.
The arrow can be easily tested - just fire at a skeleton and see if the 50% dmg immunity kicks in or not.
I guess if you follow that line of logic, maybe skeletons should take extra damage vs maces n hammers. Seems logical. Swing a sword at a ribcage, knock chips off it. Swing a hammer at it, leave nothing but chips, little ones.
Alternatively, remember in the good old PnP days how clerics HAD to use blunt weapons. Allow bludgeoning wepons to crit vs skeletons, or all undead maybe. Encourages clerics to use em. They wouldnt HAVE to but they'd be more effective in combat with undead if they did, combined with blessed weapon spell, turning and all the other divine jiggery pokery, they could be awesome undead bashers like in the old days. Maybe only clerics can score crits on undead - that might be popular. Have to make sure that the Cleric level wasnt taken for that reason. Maybe the cleric has to be single classed to get that ability.
Fasin:
Skeletons already do take more damage from maces and hammers (blunt weapons in general), or rather more specifically piercing and slashing do less (they get damage resistance/reduction/immunity can't remember which one it is off hand to those two damage types). Its a standard DnD thang ;)
ok. news to me. Im old school. 3rd ed is newfangled to me, never mind NWN. :)
Still the blunt crit vs skeletons, seems sound. No vital organs (or any organs) but a well aimed hit could incur some serious structural damage. Hey just a thought. :) Suppose against something undead but spongy, it wouldnt make that difference
Exactly, no change to skellies required. Blunt weapons are already the weapon of choice to use vs skeletons.
Hmmph... kids today divvent tell ya nowt... Reet... Hammers oot
Owl-Free
06-10-2004, 19:58
So that was why Lorick did so good in the tombs.
As for the home ownership thing, you could have houses x max server capacity, then have it so players receive a key to a house on entry OR have it so they simply buy them.
Fighting style balance in nwn.
What is needed in my opinion is to balance shield/weapon, 2-h weapon and two weapon style.
As you all propably know (or at least should know) is that without shield it´s very hard to stay alive, that 8 (+5 tower shield) point AC bonus is huge and in other hand the 50% str bonus you get from using 2-h weapons is in most cases is quite small, eg. for str 30 is 5 points extra damage if you manage to hit your enemy.
I find it difficult to explain my exact point the way i mean it but i try.
You have 2 warriors with similar statistics and same quality equipment.
The other uses weapon/shield and another 2-h weapon or two weapon style.
They start fighting against each other and what happens??
The warrior with shield wins it almost every time, only if his opponent gets lucky he can win it.
This fact reflects directly to PvM too, shield using warrior kills the same mob of enemies faster because he doesnt have to run away healing or pick them 1 at a time, he ca stand in the middle of mob and swing until nothing moves. I know i exaggerate thing a bit but thats intentional to drive my point home :P.
What i would like to see is more diversity to warriors weapon arsenal in the server, at the moment vast majority uses shield because its just so much easier to stay alive that way.
I know some people think at this point that if someone wants to play barbarian with greataxe he´ll play it no matter if he´s not as tough as the next fighter or WM and thats great, but most people either dont seem to have the patience to wait and search a nice group to join (which of course helps staying alive) or just find it too difficult without a shield.
And what would i like to be done to this?
either find some way to boost 2-h weapon and 2 weapon styles
OR
to make the shields bit less useful, either making maximum shield bonus +2 or +3 or adding some more severe encumbarance bonuses (possibly to ab) because they really are big and heavy.
Thanks for reading this rant and please post answers/opinions constructively and wiht thought :P
Our new system has been quite heavily tested already for pvm and pvp and the results were very encouraging and meet a reasonable balance between the two extremes of pvp and pvm.
In my opinion, its much better than the current setup. I cant say much more but hope you trust my judgement.
Another point on the shields thing. I find one of the major advantages of the shield is the DR you can get. As a shield bearing warrior you can quite easily have all 3 at once. As UTT2 has no DR, this advantage of the shield will go, and as I said I feel this is the shields biggest advantage.
Good point ghost, in that point of wiew monks have easily the worst situation, they dont use weapons or shield and the bracer/glove slot has to be used for monk gloves (no bracers of dex etc.)
Not to mention that for some really weird reason monk gloves dont have enchantment bonus, only attack bonus.
But i´ll trust Kev if he says things will be more balanced in UTT2 ;)
I see your point totally. But without a shield you should fully expect to be a lot more Vulnerable. Its pretty realistic. Maybe they do give a lot more protection now than they did in editions 1 and 2. I think that a shield improved your AC by one point then. Once again my ignorance of 3rd ed rules pokes me in the eye. And I was unaware of the AB for a 2handed weapon.
Ive got a number of characters who generally eschew shield use. Its a choice i made, knowing full well they were sacrificing defence for hitting harder in melee. As a rule of thumb I will try to equip my fighters with a one hand weapon and shield for occasions where he really needs the extra defense and a two hand weapon for less perilous opponents. Its down to the way you build your character. If you want someone with a BIG AXE, he needs to be big and capable of taking punishment (like my dwarf fighter and half orc), cos he will get hit. It fits the character profile, if you think about it. Consider the fantasy literature heros who used the big steel. Conan for one, he was always bloody but triumphant. He was able to absorb the hits he was taking on account of his extreme toughness. But he never came out of combat unscathed, he just didnt give a monkeys that one of his fingers was hangin on by a thread of skin, or that his thigh was gory to the femur. Thats how I play Burz, he bleeds like a stuck pig, but the pain means nothing to a berzerker. The extra AB bonus you mention is also news to me, but that works too. The big fighter who takes his hits but relies on bringing the opponent down first, both hands, and angry. :mad:
Making shields more encumbering would totally shaft any character who need them to enter all but the most trivial of combat and arent high in STR. Paladins, for example, fighters sure, and very capable combat wise, but they have to focus on CHA in their development. One of my characters (Ibun) has a real hard time carrying anything but the basics, plate armour, a large shield (i sold the tower shield cos it was too heavy) and two half decent one handed melee weapons. If shields became impractically heavy no one but those already very strong would use them and become even tougher opponents. When he goes dventuring he cant take anything but the lightest of loot and if he takes of his STR belt he has to guzzle potions of Bulls STR until he gets it back on or sells the loot. :arrow:
maybe monks could have rings that offer combat bonuses. Ever been punched by a guy wearin a sovereign ring - ouch
This is VERY fist of the north star, but do monks only do bludgeoning damage with their blows? Could they not have combat modes (different fighting styles or different punches) that inflict, slashing, piercing, fire, energy, divine damage etc.
My god. That was a departure for me. :confused: :eek:
in answer to the question earlier about prestige class creation, it requires 2da, tlk, and in game fiddling (scripts, etc.), and takes much time.
Btw, fist of the north star, I saw that the other day, hilarious.
Aye it reminded me of some of the characters i used to often see online, all the spell-slinging warriors and such. It was more MANGA than JRRT some nights. What impressed me with FotNS was the flawless dubbing ;)
Fasin, i actually think you didnt see my point after all :P
Like you said shield using warrior should be more durable and thats true, but my point was that shield bonus is way too high compared to the advantages you gain from using 2-h weapons or 2 weapon style, they just arent balanced.
And why Conan stays alive??
Thats because he´s a thick skulled boneahead and definately has devastating critical to kill foes so fast :E
Visardi - Nahh he was just a hard *******.
I did see your point mate. :) I played D&D editions 1 and 2. Like I said in my post, a shield only gave a bonus of 1 or something in those days. I agree that now the shield bonuses reflect the defensive benefits better than they did then. It does unbalance the game in favour of 1 handed weapons and shield fighting, but I think that shields used to be all but useless in the old days unless they had a magic bonus of +1 +2 or+3. Then players had no qualms about discarding the shield in favour of a big weapon for more damage.
I agree that it would be a lot nicer to see a better variety of fighting styles in the game.
If you consider the realism aspect of it. A warrior who goes into combat with an opponent who has a shield, will use a shied too. Otherwise the following, 2handed blow lands on shield, shield bearer brings shortsword up and around his shield and into opponents ribs below the upraised arms. 2handed weapons HISTORICALLY leave the weilder exposed, they arent meant to be balanced. Well i think so anyway. Thats why the Romans tended to sort of conquer the world. Tower shield, shortsword or spear -vs- celts with ******* sword and small shield, or ******* sword 2 handed.
At the end of the day I wasnt disagreeing with the point you were making. But I actually like the fact that the player hasto choose the OFFENSIVE option or DEFENSIVE option. If magical bonuses on shields werent as high (which i think that they wont be in the next mod) then the two styles would be brought closer. ;) plus I believe that 2handed weapons will be available with larger magical bonuses than 1 handed ones. I hope that this doesnt mean everyone will be running around with a whopping great chopper, who do these upstarts think they are, Dwarves? :P
Let us salute the hero culture of shieldless warriors, who charge unencumbered into battle to cleave or fall. Never cheered the romans except in gladiator. Even then I reckon the huge Hun bloke at the beginning with the massive axe should have won (bah). Actually I prefer 13th warrior anyway.
Now, how do we balance melee for fully armed -vs- naked?
To be honest I wouldn't worry about the differences right now, as Kev has said things will be very different with UTT2.
There already are a few monk gloves that give extra damage types I think, I'm sure Ive seen a few.
Remember with the new system that is coming in and no haste as well as magical weapon types being lower, monks are going to get a new lease of life in UTT2, they may not hit hard but they will certainly have a whole new role to play.
At present however:
I think the thing about weapon types is the sword and shield combo is probably the most generally useful setup. A lot of people build their characters so they are maxxed out in one aspect of fighting. Newsflash you don't have to!
Take Jade for example, while she primarily uses sword and shield as she tends to be put in 'the dwarven wall' and so that setup suits it. What probably most people don't know is she is equally profficient with the greatsword and has just as many feats (specialisations, improved crit, focus, epic feats etc) in that weapon so if she ever does get assigned to damage detail in a group she can hit a fair bit harder.
If you play a lot of solo then weapon shield probably works best, if in a group or playing a sneak character then one of the others can be best. It depends on the situation
If you build a character that works on one specific setup, expect to have specific weaknesses and strengths . If you look at the difference between one of the big 2 handed weapon hitters they may be getting up to high 100-s maybe close to 200+ on a crit. With a longsword, Jade gets 60-80 on a crit, not great for dropping a mage quickly or stopping it casting so I would probably change weapon to something a little heavier, or maybe 2 swords to hit more often.
If I sneak up to something with my ranger duel wielding, I can for example often drop the first opponent with duel wield before it gets an attack in and its friends can retaliate.
It's all about what you make it, your play style and your circumstances.
I think all the weapon masters we have seen recently make the whole 'one type of weapon' setup is the only way to go when that is far from the only option.
Cheers
Wreck
parknutz
07-10-2004, 10:19
Well there is a feat that helps the monk out greatly. The feat weapon finesse definitely benefits the monk in which they can use thier DEX modifier instead of his STR. Not a huge factor when it comes to AB but then again monks aren't front line brawlers either. They rely on stealth and precise strikes to catch their foes off guard.
Basically, the fighting style you choose will tell you what feats to take. Using 2 weapon style, you would want Called Shot, Disarm and Knockdown. It would be cool however if the Called shot feat had the option of going for the sword or shield arm.
When fighting with a 2Handed Weapon you better just accept that you are gonna get hit unless you pump up Tumble or gain feats that help with your AC...Amror Skin. Dodge..Not a whole of choices but thats the price you pay for wanting to do more damage.
In the paper and pencil game I play in now I have a barbarian that uses the great axe and he definitely pays the price in getting hit but thats what fighters are supposed to do. They are played to get hit and hit back. Those are just my thoughts.
As Wreck and Kev have said, things should be different fot UTT2. However when you say that there is no balance in the choice between Shield/2-handed weapon, you're right. There's a simple explanation for this - Hordes of the Underdark. In the original campaign, and in Shadows as well, anything with a bonus above plus 2 was very rare, and quite a find. So not having a shield would lose you what 7ac max?. With a strength 20 fighter the extra 2 or 3 damage on a normal hit you get from being two handed is a good trade in. But with Hordes and the sudden increase in bonuses shields have become much more effective, and the two handed bonus hasn't changed.
Remember the base rules are based on PnP (sorry some of us do seem too hark on about PnP a bit, I apologise) in 3.5 (current edition) a tower shield will give +5 ac, but my fighter would be amazed if he ever foubd anything better thn a +1 tower shield. Generally magical weapons and armour are extrememly rare in PnP (depending on DM of course).
So the lack of balance comes from the strength of magic items rather than the system itself. Unfortunately not too much can be done about that, and what can be done it seems is being done for UTT2.
Veld, Fasin and Burz do much the same as Jade, wreck. Ive got each setup with a weapon and shield style, two weapon style (though its mostly for show as i dont think either has a two weapon feat), and a geataxe for large damage. Its fun going into combat and trying different setups against differnt opponents. For mt uruk-hai barbarian, his geataxe is the best weapon AB wise so occasionally opponents with a high AC and a ton of hp are a real challenge cos he has to drop his AC in order to hit them. It can make the combat even more exciting if he also has to enter rage to hit better,cos that will drop his ac even more and increase his vulnerability. Actually i enjoy doing that.
Im certainly going to ask Kev to transfer some of my characters to the new mod (I hope that is still on the cards), because I will try to re-equip them as best I can the way they were, and see how the removal of DR from them and their opponents, and the lower weapon / armour bonuses effect the outcome of combat. If necessary ill look at changing their gear to suit the new conditions.
Good stuff Fasin.
It's one of the reasons after we had the char wipe a few months back I built Jade not as a Weapon Master again (as she was originally), but more of a 'jack of all trades' fighter. Makes things all the more interesting for me using multiple setups rather than just grabbing a chosen weapon and critting the hell out of everything. Kind of like having 2-3 characters in 1 to choose from depending on what style I choose.
I think the UTT2 should open up a lot for general style characters. Of course specialist or maximised characters will decimate certain areas but may well come unstuck in some of the new situations.
Cheers
Wreck
Well all you 'evil' players have got somthing to look forward to I must say.
I'ev just had the honour of playing through the bulk of Dol Guldor for UTT2 and its good. In fact I'm jealous (although I haven't seen new Bree). Some great quests, with some nice sub-plots and use of skills.
It was good enough to convince me to make the characetr I just played with when UTT2 comes online. My first Evil character, might give you an idea of how good it is that.
I think one of the most important things is the fact that evil have another starting area all of their own.
How long till christmas?
Bugger... While Im fiddlin around with Misty Mountain stuff, writin a quest for Framsburg and its environs with the Beorning and the Éothéod. And all in blissful ignorance...
Some buggers are off a galavantin about the dark pathways of The Hill of Black Magic... I say again Bugger... :)
Just kiddin ghost. Glad it works, only wish I had gotten to see it...
Argon Balros
09-10-2004, 03:02
i think the ability to write letters in game would be awsome and add a lot of extra depth to roleplay
The test was very encouraging indeed and really showed the strengths of the new system. Some of the things which I think were most noticeable;
- Gold really is in scarce supply now - Just how we want it. I've often felt that characters have way too much gold on them. If it was so easy to get rich, you'd think everyone would be an adventurer. Adventuring should be challenging, taxing, dangerous and rarely highly rewarding except on those special few journeys. Adventuring is also supposed to be fun, and it looks like the fun factor has actually increased with the economy changes. Now we are begining to see careful saving and spending of gold. I hope to keep the economy as tight as possible as the remainder of the world is placed into UTT2 so we can keep this momentum going.
- Quests - From day 1, (evil in this situation) characters can, if it is their desire, get involved in issues to do with the war of the ring. Without giving away any specifics, characters starting in Dol Guldur can get involved in all sorts of heinous acts, such as defiling trees, attacking camps of Wood Elves, looting tombs and exterminating settlements.
- Itemset and combat - With the introduction of our new itemset and item system, we are now seeing things in combat we didnt see before. There are now more traps and projectile traps (as theres no resistances to absorb all the damage) and a number of npcs will now use grenade weapons. (Nothing beats storming a settlement and seeing an innkeeper throw a grenade from behind his bar!)
Just some of the things we are already seeing on the low level end of the spectrum. It's going to get better :)
If you are wanting gold to be a short supply in the new version of the game. Would it be worth while limiting or controlling the use of pick pocket more. The last thing anyone wants is all that hard earned cash just disappearing off into the hands of a thief, who does not need to do much to get it.
We already have plans to modify the pick pocket skill. Use of the skill will be limited through the use of per-server reset variables.
Basically once a certain number of attempts have been made, thats enough for the day :)
Dont know whether or not this belongs in the PCT thread.
Been wondering if it would be worth changing the names of the 'standard' generic magical weapons to something a bit more appropriate. +5 Electric Battleaxe, sounds a bit sterile.
Perhaps we can come up with a more atmospheric naming system. A few ideas:
Fire Swords - Firebrand (eg. Firebrand Longsword +3)
Fire Axes - Flamecleaver (eg. Flamecleaver Greataxe +3)
Fire Hammers/Maces/Blunts - Forgefire (eg. Forgefire Warhammer +3)
Cold Swords - Rimeblade (eg. Rimeblade Longsword +3)
Cold Axes - Icereaver (eg. Icereaver Greataxe +3)
Cold Blunt - Coldforge (eg. Coldforge Warhammer +3)
Electric Swords - Stormblade (eg. Stormblade Longsword +3)
Electric Axes - Skycleaver (eg. Skycleaver Greataxe +3)
Electric Blunts - Cloudsplitter (eg. Cloudsplitter Warhammer +3)
Sonic Swords - Discordant (eg. Discordant Longsword +3)
Sonic Axes - Echoheart (eg. Echoheart Greataxe +3)
Sonic Blunts - Stonesplitter (eg. Stonesplitter Warhammer +3)
Very good. I have not remade any of those items yet, but I think I will consider these names for when I do start to create some of the special weapons.
These are just ideas folks. Quite a few of em Im not entirely happy with. Its easy to come up with names for individual magic weapons, something appropriate for its properties or its maker or its history. Something to fit a range, or a category of weapons, is a bugger. We could always make them more specific but that defeats the object of the exercise. Any suggestions would be welcome. It would be nice to see other peoples ideas. :)
While we are on the subject are we going to have race specific items, or what about dwarvish / elvish / adunaic / black speech names for items that are race / culture specific. Ill do a bit of research and see what i can come up with. Surely I can manage to translate "Dwarven Waraxe", for Durins sake!
Khuzud Burk - Dwarven Axe (i think) :D
Ok, research as much as you can for all the standard weapons. We will now be having all standard weapons up to +4. (This way the best magic shields remain effective)
As far as race specific items go, yes, there will be some - racial variants of standard weapons. For example, elven longswords which are different in appearance and offer a small extra property - in this case 80% weight reduction on the item.
Nice one. Ill see what I can find.
Do you think that the likes of Katanas, Kukris shiruken and similar are out of place in Tolkien (except in the far east way beyond Rhun)? Do they really add anything to the game by having them in and would they be missed if they werent?
Not really. The katana can always be seen simply as 'another type of sword'. Tolkien never went into detail about weapons. He would often only comment on the fact that people HAD weapons, never on the style of the weapon or size of the blade, for instance. Its another one of those things thats open to interpretation.
Shuriken maybe, but i'll still have some laying about, but they would be rare. This will generally be the case with any exotic weapon now in UTT2. Exotic implies the weapon is rare, so we will make them less avaialble and less examples of exotic weapons will exist.
Sure the weapon forms can be used as swords of a different kidney, but the names don't belong.
Looking at the fantastic design work WETA did for LOTR, and given that some of that has already found its way into the CEP, perhaps nodachi, katanas and wakazishi could form the basis of elven swords and shortswords, as they sort of did in the films (Im referring to Arwen's, Elrond's and Haldir's). It would explain why they are exotic - a much lighter sword would be strange to weild to someone used to a 'normally' balanced sword (I know, Ive messed with several kinds myself, dont worry no one was hurt). Plus they have an elegant look although maybe they need more conventional hilts.
Kukris and shiruken belong further east. At the very least they need more apt names. :)
Ill see if i can put togather a doc this a few names for different weapons for different races. :rolling:
Any use as character classes?
WITCH (of the good magic variety) - curuni (quenya)
HAG - shatraug (in the black speech)
Kev. Its a bit late now. Ive just finished putting together a doc that should be useful for generating multi-lingual names for race specific weapons and in some cases armours etc. in elven, dwarven, and black speech, as well as unique items. Ill mail it too you now. If your mailbox is full Im going to cry.
Argon Balros
10-10-2004, 09:38
a copy Arwens sword from the film is available in the game as a scimiter already
All items are being remade (many wont be the same anyway). Arwen has not been put in yet, so you are free to think up any useful ideas for her weapon.
Arwen's sword is called Hadhafang which means Throng-cleaver It once belonged to the Elven princess Idril, who wed a mortal man and bore Earendil, the father of Elrond who in turn was father to Arwen. Before Arwen's birth, Elrond wielded Hadhafang at the end of the second age of "Middle-Earth", during the Last Alliance of Elves and Men in the great battle against Sauron. Later his daughter, Arwen, used Hadhafang when she aided Frodo in his escape from the Ringwraiths. Inscribed on the blade are runes in the Elven language of Sindarin that say "aen estar Hadhafang i chathol hen, thand arod dan i thang an i arwen." Which translates to "this blade is called Hadhafang, a noble defense against the enemy throng for a noble lady."
OK - this i found on a site selling replica swords. I cant attest to the authenticity of this. 'Sangahyando' would be 'throng cleaver' in Quenya, 'Hadhafang' is Sindarin I think. Cant find the name as a reference to a sword in Silmarillion or LOTR. The word sangahyando only appears (as far as I can tell) in the appendices of the Silmarillion as an example of word use only. Sill its a good name for a sword and if Arwen needed one in the movie its only right and proper that she should pinch her dad's.
Maybe Elrond could have his sword back for the purpose of the mod and if Arwen needs one we could invent one for her. :)
'Wendëmaica' - quenya 'maidenblade' (bit of a guess this, for all I know it translates as 'virgin's cutting tool' ... scary)
'Wendëmacil' - quenya 'maiden sword'
'Wendëlango' - quenya 'maiden broadsword'
'Ringawendë' - quenya 'cold maiden'
'Mánawendë' - quenya 'blessed maiden'
'Nárewendë' - quenya 'fire maiden'
'Wendenárë' - quenya 'maidenfire'
'Aicawendë' - quenya 'sharp maiden'
got carried away, and if these are correct I'll eat me hat.
Well it's been a very productive week. I'll be checking up on what others have done very soon, but I have managed to get a mountain of content setup already for UTT2, with this only being the second week of the project. At present, we are bang on schedule in terms of progress. I aimed to have the evil starting region of Dol Guldur completed in a week and its all done. Construction of this region and all its content took up at least 72 hours. Serious overtime went into this, and I must say, evil PCs are in for a real treat :)
Theres been a lot of great discussion and ideas for UTT2 put forward in the forums the past 2 weeks and its really helped move things along. Especially those from the PCT. A lot of your ideas for Dol Guldur and Mirkwood were implemented and these ideas for item names are definately going to be used.
So, an update so far on whats been done for UTT2;
- All creatures rebuilt to new system and ready for use
- All new economy system setup
- All new Item set and system implemented and ready for use.
- Bree Land is all up and running; some tidying up and revisions to some quests. Barrow Downs region entirely redone with large quest added.
- Dol Guldur completed along with most of Mirkwood. Dol Guldur serves as a general evil starting area for all evil races from 1st level. Now that evil have a region all of their own to get started in, Bree will no longer be availible to evil characters as a point to start from. Some of the content of Dol Guldur includes; 9 quests for the beginner to the level 6/7 character. Almost every quest is linked to the next, starting out running basic errands for thrall captains, then moving up in ranks to the officers and until finally executing a great task for Khamul the Ringwraith who commads Dol Guldur.
The quests of Dol Guldur will take you all over Mirkwood; from the dank caves of Dol Guldur itself, to Stoorish Hobbit settlements, to tombs, the thick of the forest and deep into the mountains of Mirkwood. The range of foes will also excite players; from lowly vermin, to Stoor Hobbits, Undead, Woodland Elves, Beornings, Hobgoblins...it goes on :)
- Avalyn has produced excellent concepts for the MERP UK prc. Tests were performed on a few examples and the potential shown was incredible. More to come from Avalyn on these soon. We also checked out other things which we want to do with the PRC which was successful. UTT2 will use our own loading screen tips - these will be used to relay useful info to players about the world whilst the areas load. Good for getting important messages across. We also checked to ensure we could disable classes/abilities if needed and that was also successful. Say goodbye to cheese those who have constantly complained to me about it :)
So whats in the works this week coming?
Forochel and tharbad will be imported and prepared. That should not take long at all. Though forochel will require a few touch ups. All this should be done by mid week. Then I will be importing the misty mountains. Hopefully the misties will be complete by this time next week. From that point, I hope to run an open day for some players to sample UTT2 so far. I'd like the day to take some characters to a high enough level to sample our new prestige classes. More to come on that soon.
Lads, there is a ton and a buggerin half of stuff that could do with even somthin as simple as a name tweak. Check the stuff out on the net and bung some ideas up here.
You know it makes sense.
God loves you and so does Fasin... Hahahahahahahahaha - my my mister orderly, what interesting sleeves that jacket has...
To everyone working on UTT2:
Sounds like you guys and/or gals are doing wild work! Nice job!
Kev. How about we have a sickly and feeble King Theoden with grima shouting the odds in meduseld (much to the anoyance of Eowyn) and Eomer as an outcast. He and his men could be encamped somewhere else in the riddermark. Helms Deep perhaps, or Dunharrow. Quests involving a message courier between brother and sister would be available as would spying missions for grima. Gandalf could send you with a cure for the kings 'sickness' or Saruman could send you with a poison to keep him sick... That sort of thing. What goes on in Rohan at the moment is not really tied to the books.
What else could we do with Rohan in a NWN context - suggestions guys ?
Galdor_Niphredil
11-10-2004, 18:49
Also what about Theodred. The films pretty much skimmed over the character
Suppose the real issue is the timeline..before or after Theodred's death/before or after Eomer's banishment.
Would be a grand idea to keep Theodred alive in the mod... gives the allies someone to look out for and the evils someone to target. Reckon Eomer should have been banished by now, Saruman is quite powerful. and it means we can spread the major NPCs around a bit. The entire royal family of Rohan are all in one room at the moment and they dont need to be. Eomer and his riders can be encamped somewhere in Rohan, near where Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas meet them, like the Dunedain are near Tharbad.
My plan is we have Theodred in this time.
I have never ever given an exact date for the games setting as I wanted to have more flexibility with what we can do. All i have ever said is that we are set 'after Bilbo leaves the Shire' and 'Before Frodo leaves the shire'. The time between these two events is very short indeed, but al ot of things were happening around this time all over the world.
There is no way for a character to know whats going on every where at once, so im quite happy to apply situations from the books, even if they are a few years out of place. Overall, it seems to work very well, rather than being slaverish to what can be a somewhat restricting 'set in stone' timezone.
Originally posted by DM_Kev
I have never ever given an exact date for the games setting as I wanted to have more flexibility with what we can do. All i have ever said is that we are set 'after Bilbo leaves the Shire' and 'Before Frodo leaves the shire'. The time between these two events is very short indeed, but al ot of things were happening around this time all over the world.
Kev thats not a very short timeframe. Its 17 years. :P Unless you are of Elvish blood, then it would seem like a piffling weekend on the hoy. :rolling:
When I look at Middle Earth text books and see all the events unfolding, 17 years looks very short to me :P
well if you put it like that... *sheesh* :rolleyes:
I tend to think of MERP_UK as our very own parallel Middle Earth, so long as it looks and feels right you can get away with more or less any bending of the timeline so long as things are in the spirit of Tolkien's world. When you consider that its a world that resets itself every 12 hours or so what more can you hope to achieve :)
pfft, put Hama in the Meduseld (for those of you who dont know, he is captain of the Kings Guard.) Make him a tough git too.
Anyway, Im working on the PRC now, Very soon to releasing some information on it :) Maybe even tonight...who knows...well, I do.
It would make sense that Hama wouldnt allow anyone into the Golden Hall without proper authority. A seal or token could be acquired via a quest.
Coldbayne
12-10-2004, 23:11
With haste spells becoming somewhat less common since perm haste on items will be removed, will level 15 or so or higher npc monsters currently with innate fast movement/haste be reduced to normal speed to correspond with the reduction in pc power?
This is already the case as every single NPC in UTT2 will be new. Existing ones will be rebuild and a lot of new ones are to be added.
As for the use of haste itself:
- Sub bosses will have 'cast haste' items and potions of speed.
- All the big bosses, such as characters from the books will have permanent haste. This is to set them out as truly unique and all-powerful characters.
Looks to me that when Bioware designed the movement rates and animations, the un-hasted ones look too slow to be a normal person running. Its almost as it its in slow-motion :) The hasted ones look more natural and fluid.
Maybe its just me being used to seeing hasted movement but it looks like a more natural motion. I realise that there is probably nothing anyone can do bout this. Its only an observation, everyone will be un hasted most of the time anyway.
Beware of pickpockets with potions of speed. A new definition of hit and run... :)
Permanent haste can be a property limited to such things as True Rings of Power, the ones named in print. Or level 40 items ha hah :D just kiddin.
Argon Balros
15-10-2004, 12:37
perhaps making alot of the prestige classes give a slight boost to movment to rectify that
Argon Balros
15-10-2004, 12:39
another idea you could have hechmen awarded you bassed on your reputation say once you become reconnised as a knight you could get a squire or a mighty wizard may be awarded a bodyguard
Argon mentioned this to me online in the same context as a druid/ranger having an animal companion. It sounds like a good idea. :)
He was sugesting it as a class feat (i think), I also thought that it could be implemented as reputation / level based. Maybe the new Champions could call upon their Squires, while the Evil ones could have a slave to knock about and generally abuse... :naughty:
Henchmen + PW = Lag :)
Henchmen can be easily represented by PC's :)
thought that would be why we hadnt seen them before. Suppose that companion animals are lower in polys.
Nice idea though Argon.
TheStoryteller01
26-10-2004, 18:03
OK - since everybody is invited to participate I am gonna share my weird ideas on UTT2 (which repeats some thoughts from another thread)
I propose to call it the 4th Age and stage it some hundred years after the ring war to provide a secure base to play in a tolkien environment but allow as many D&D stuff flowing into it as necessary.
So what does the 4th age look like?
1. The legendary ones are gone. The ents became *solid*, the last of the Istahri are gone, the elven kings and queens finally left for the isles and entities like Tom Bombadil or Beorn seem to have left with them.
But new legends arise. With magic not longer confined to Lorien and the remains of the evil wizards studied secretly by adventurous minds a new generation of magic users has learned to create minor spells for instant use during battle or other occasions. The Valar finally have decided to interact with the various races through priests and shamans battling for supremacy amongst them and using everyone from Dundedain to Olog-Hai as paws in their game (Personally I favor the picture of -no matter if good or evil - *merciless* gods who grant power only for the sake of their own plans.)
2. The pure races are a thing from the past.
The elves of the forth age are mortal (but still a longliving race) and allready carry about 20% human blood in their veins while the half-elves blood is about 80% human (due to the strong elvish genes the appearence is still more elf than human). The Lake People have mixed with the wood elfes even beyond a point of distinction and share their own small kingdom now. The more intelligent Orc breeds have mixed to some extent with the Eastern and Southern Tribes that where allied with Sauron and Half-Orcs are quite common there. Only the Dwarfes and Hobbits still frown upon intermarriage although both races are travelling the whole of ME in the 4th age. Still their numbers are small if not diminishing.
The races of the South and the East have brought some of their traditions to ME, martial arts and exotic weaponry as well as piracy.
3. The mighty creatures are gone. Dragons that can devastate a whole town alone or eagles that nearly match them in size no longer roam the skies and there are no Giants anymore who shake a whole mountainside with their battles.
But smaller creatures of all kind are taking their places. Some maybe are a creation of Sauron others possibly inhabited the lands he later claimed as his and are just returning but creatures like manticores, beholders or even small dragons are encountered - even if rarely.
4. Magic has changed.
Objects like the one ring, the iron crown or the palanthiri can not be crafted in the forth age but enchanting armor and weapons is widely known amongst master smiths and preparing magic potions is near to common. With the Valar communicating through priests and shamans with their followers one can encounter spellcasting on a daily basis, especially in the field of heals and cures.
5. A new menace is threatening the free people as well as the orc tribes: The dark elves who were an advanced and more intelligent race Sauron breeded for his ambitious plans. But they proved to intelligent to be controlled so Sauron - unable to destroy the whole of them - confinded them to the dephts of the earth where they nurtured their hate for the sun and every being walking in its light. They discovered paths leading to the surface and are wreaking havoc amongst the settlements in their reach. Since Sauron was a good teacher after all they even managed to infiltrate human and elf society to some extent.
There are even rumors of encounters with a mixture of dark elves and the sentinent spiders of mirkwood but these are surely only tales to frighten young hobbits into their beds.....
Let me know what you think about this - no matter if good or bad.
*disclaimer: since I am a native german speaker I can not be hold responsible for laughs or other bodily reactions my grammar causes occasionally* ;)
Argon Balros
26-10-2004, 18:31
well it sound like you've comeup with a very good explanation for the things in neverwinter nights that don't really fit in with Tolkien's world, only problem is if most of us wanted to play in world like you describe we'd just go on a normal roleplay server set in the forgotton realms.
Galdor_Niphredil
26-10-2004, 18:31
Some nice ideas there but UTT2 is definately set in the Third Age.
Also, the great man himself abandoned the proposed Fourth Age sequel to LoTR - 'The New Shadow' as he thought that interest would be minimal and it seems he had an extremely hard time writing what he did for it).
:)
The mod is to be set in the 3rd Age, sometime in the period after Bilbo moves to Rivendell and before Frodo sets off for Mordor on the quest to destroy the ring. So the evil forces are building their strength and the allies are trying to come to terms with this and muster a defence.
Theres nothing wrong with your ideas mate, but your vision of a 4th age of ME sounds like virtually all of Tolkien's creations are no more than a memory, and I think most players WANT to meet members of the Fellowship and their cohorts. Thats a big part of the fun isnt it :)
TheStoryteller01
26-10-2004, 19:16
Well, one cant have it all i guess - I just wanted to provide an idea to fit all the NWN stuff (which the majroity dont wanna drop obviously) into the existing map.
Because if it is set in the Third age there'd be no clerics, mages, monks, paladins, dark elfes and temples where one can be healed and cured....or is it just Dungeons and Dragons on a tolkien map with Tolkien Places and Tolkien Names? ;)
Well - I shouldn't think to much about it - as long as it stays as enjoyable as it is I would even thankfully play it if you'd call it "Historical Recreation of Britain 800 AD"
And reagarding the great man himself dropping the idea of a forth age - I have been told on other threads where I *ranted* about most characters I encounter not to be consistent with Tolkiens world "left out a lot and theres no reason not to include clerics, pallys, battle mages and druids into ME". Well - I guess Tolkien would have loved or hated D&D stuff running around in a world based on his works just as it fits :D
Originally posted by TheStoryteller01
Because if it is set in the Third age there'd be no clerics, mages, monks, paladins, dark elfes and temples where one can be healed and cured....or is it just Dungeons and Dragons on a tolkien map with Tolkien Places and Tolkien Names? ;)
Why, in your opinion shouldnt there be such things. Middle Earth doesnt stop being Middle Earth if they are included. Its all about compromise, between ME absolutism and NWN playability. Kev has tried to strike a balance between the two and has done a great job. I really fail to see the problem.
Referring to the efforts made here as just being D&D on a MERP map will certainly be regarded with interest by those who have invested a great deal of time and effort in the server and its content. You really need to spend more than a couple of days before passing judgement and declaring their considerable efforts merely adequate.
Galdor_Niphredil
26-10-2004, 20:51
Storyteller, there are going to be 'inaccuracies' on the mod but these are there primarily to balance play against realism. Unfortunately there has to be a trade off sometimes.
For instance,Tharbad did not exist as it is presented on the server - it was a ruin at the suggested timeline (Late Third Age),but I for one (as a Tolkien reader for 20-25 years), would not have it presented in any other way- the Arena contests at the Greyflood are a server highlight for many of us here.
As for the D&D on a Middle Earth map, considering the late nights that many of the people have had bringing this server into fruition I think that some of your comments could be abit more constructive to say the least.
TheStoryteller01
26-10-2004, 23:06
Since I enjoy playing on this server I wont comment on the consistency of UTT anymore and I hope you take my apologies if it sounded like I did not appreciate the effort that was put into this project.
I just remember what happened on my Warhammer-board when I decided to let everybody know what I thought about Jacksons *interpretation* of LOTR and that I left the cinema during part II when the elves manned Helms Deep (not sure about the english name of the place atm).
Even if I did read LOTR and the Hobbit a dozen times I surely can do without the stake again. ;)
clone number 3
28-10-2004, 18:28
One thing I would like to see on UTT2 is the difficulty level cranked up a notch or two. I think this could be done in 2 ways
1) Tighten up on the resting.
In my personal opinion I do think that it is a little too easy to rest on the server, as no real restrictions come into play until level 10+.
I think this would also help to bring a little "mystique" back to the role of the magic user. When a wizzie can walk into a room, fire off half a dozen fireballs, rest & repeat, it's no wonder we can be forgiven for thinking we're in a Forgotten realms novel sometimes!
Also, this will encourage and promote the use of healing skills/spells.
2) Raise the penalties for respawning.
Again IMO, 50xp a level is not a huge loss for respawning. I think raising the penalty will encourage players to think a little more before they storm off to attack the local goblin lair. Hopefully this would also slow the pace of the server a little and thus encourage more interaction.
I would also imagine the above would encourage more party creation and therefore more RP, which is (thankfully) what the server is all about.
Please don't take my comments as criticisms, as I think this is a great server and I plan to be around for UTT2 whatever.
Cheers
From what I know of UTT2 parties are gonna be really important. I've been lucky enough to playtest one start area and one level 5/6+ area. And they are damn tough, not too tough, but tough. They've been designed for a party, and because all quests should now have level caps people won't be able to come back to them for a quick xp fix after they're more powerful. Combine this with the absolute removal of item based DR, and a limit on magic items (+5 enhancement bonus max I believe) and I'll think you'll find the difficulty will be up a notch or two withou too many other changes having to be made.
Having said this, when UTT2 launches it may be worth having a forum thread to arrange meeting/adventures online. As being in a party will be more important we may want somewhere to arrange to meet a group of people so we are garuanteed a party to travel with.
Maybe 1 minute per every 2 levels of char, maybe maximum 15 minutes (same 15 minutes for level 30 and 40 charachter). Max 15 minutes because spell casters don't get any new spells after level 20. (only epic spells from feats)
Level 40 wizard can't cast more spells per day than any level 20 wizard, thats why time between rests should be almost same to all epic chars (system equal to all charachter classes?).
With my weapon master i don't usually sleep often, mostly just because i have rp reason to do it (doesn't sound right if i solo mino island without resting at all. With my endurance 10 it should be impossible to kill hundreds minotaurs without fatigue).
:dork: :camper:
unless you are well hard :P
Just a quick question, will there be class skill things like in some other servers? Like being able to gather herbs in the forest to make healing kits, or being able to mine various metals, and then process it, turn it into a blade and enchant it. Ofcourse, there would be limits so someone couldn't become a jack of all trades, so there'd be a whole team of people: a miner, a metalworker, a smithy and an enchanter in this case. Perhaps you could see an NPC who would teach you the craft for a fee, and then you would go off and do stuff, gaining xp in the craft and levels so you'd have a higher chance of success and could do better things. Miners could mine more exotic stuff (like Mithril), smitys would be able to make better weapons, enchanters could make better enchantments. And you could have a food system, which you wouldn't need to survive, but it would give you a small boast to hp, either instantaniously or over time. So then you could have farmers, and fishers, and millers and bakers and cooks, the more 'processed' a food is, the more HP it gives you. Imagine the role-play oppurtunities! A PC farmer might have his house attacked by rampaging orc PCs who cause lots of havoc so might not be able to do it himself but could hire the help of some other PCs to get revenge. It would be great!
I played on one server that was like this, but it was ruined by over-realism. Once you died, you're dead for good and could never use that character. However, it was a fun server, but now it's disappeared into the mists of servers to have gone offline and never come back up.
I belive that Longbeard is working on some trade/craft skills thing, but as yet we don't know how its to be done.
Talen Greymarck
14-11-2004, 05:39
Just a couple of ideas that I wanted to float for UTT2:
- Awarding more experience for quests, good RP, and kills if players are in a party. Isn't this something that could be scripted?
- Persistent bulletin boards in some cities/towns. This would be nice so that characters could leave messages for others who may not be present in the world at a particular time.
Let me know if I'm crazy.
This is my thoughts on the above.
1) More xp for quests, I do feel that the xp rewards for quests are pretty good as they are. You can make the earlier levels easily enough, and other areas offer enough xp if you work in a party, or proceed very carefully.
2) XP rewards for RP are always good, but they would have to be given by DM's, and this of course means having a DM in the right place at the right time.
3) More xp for kills - I personally feel this can be dangerous, as it can become a race to get the kills, and certain characetr types will getr moe kills than others in their party, thus level more quickly. Also I've seen kill bonus xp done elsewhere, and people tend to solo more for the extra xp.
UTT2 compared to the current module will offer less/smaller rewards then you are getting at the moment, particularly in terms of gold and items. The XP rewards for quests is pretty much unchanged. The biggest quests will offer a maximum of 1,000xp as a reward.
You have to remember that this is a huge world, with many activities available for different level groups. If characters advance too quickly, they miss out on a lot of quests and content which may be useful to their development - Remember that all quests now have level caps on them. If you gain levels so quickly, some quests will become unavailable to you.
A lot of LOTR/Middle Earth servers create this impression that the game only truly begins when you are at maximum level - this is definately not the case here. I intend to create a world where the game begins the moment you go through that portal to your chosen destination. Every action you take and every quest you follow from level 1 will have an impact on your characters development. This makes the game more replayable and definately more enjoyable than making easy xp and reaching top level in a few days playing.
Partying will always offer less xp then soloing, but then I find this to be quite balanced; Soloing is VERY difficult on the whole. It can be easy to do at low levels, but once you start to enter the realms of multiple attacks per round, high magic, etc, it can get very tough. With the setup for UTT2, it will be even harder than it is now. Because of this greater risk, soloing will offer more xp.
Parties will find it easier if there is a good mixture of classes who work well together. Because of the strenth in numbers making things easier, there is less xp rewarded. Obviously the bigger the party, the less xp there is to go round. At the end of the day you just have to decide; are you looking for xp or a fun adventure? The second always works for me.
Talen Greymarck
14-11-2004, 20:18
Hmm...sorry guys. Maybe I didn't state my suggestions clearly. I have no problem with the amount of xp awarded for quests, etc. and I certainly am not asking for more xp. What I am suggesting is that, in order to encourage parties to form and less solo play (isn't this the stated direction of this server - towards RP and party play?), that the xp rewards be greater for those traveling in a party vs. those soloing. I think you all might have misunderstood my original post. I'm certainly NOT all about gaining xp at the expense of a good RP or adventure. I'm just looking for and suggesting ways that we could improve on what we believe to be MERP UK's core competencies, good RP, party play, and a good community. That being said, it would be a good thing to increase the rewards for those who are playing in the spirit of the gameworld. It wouldn't have to be a drastic difference, but something to encourage partying sure wouldn't hurt. In my mind, right now, there just isn't enough to encourage people to stop, talk, and group up when they don't already know each other. I've passed by so many players in the game who just run by without saying a word. Some are even so bold as to keep running away after I try to talk to them. :hmph: Often these other players are blatantly playing for nothing other than xp, ditching into a cave, dungeon, or whatever without saying a word. "Partying will always offer less xp then soloing, but then I find this to be quite balanced; Soloing is VERY difficult on the whole." etc. - Despite solo play being harder, I don't see anything wrong with rewarding parties in unique if not better ways than solo players, given our direction toward good RP and party play. People still have a choice what they'd like to do. Like I said, we advertise a set of values for our community, but we don't encourage it in fixed and tangible ways. Just my opinion though. And please don't take this as me saying that we are doing a bad job because we aren't. Constructive criticism is a good thing. :)
As for the rewarding good RP with xp, I was referring to when a DM is present. I've been playing on this server since the end of July and I've extensively RP'd when no one is looking, and when I'm in a group, and I've only been rewarded for it once. We could stand to have more encouragement for good RP if it is at all possible.
Just had a look at your original post Talon and you're right I did misread it - I missed the 'if players are in a party' - kinda of the important part.
Party play can be less rewarding if you play in the same areas that you solo in, however when I'm in a party we tend to play areas which would be a bit beyond us when we are on our own. This makes it a more rewarding area, and can end up being more rewarding than soloing the slightly easier areas.
This being said I'm all for anything that promotes party-play and role-play.
inkman2003
17-11-2004, 22:07
heya guys,
finally celadur gets himself sorted out on MERP forums;)
god things have been hectic with my comic site and band etc. which by the way we are looking for one last artist so if your interested give us a email.
anyways i must say i was over at kevs (DM Kev) on saturday and i tested the new MERP2 (the tolkien stirkes back! lol) and i have to say its bloody fantastic. very well designed with alot of cool new features good going kev!
inkie:r2d2:
Nim White
18-11-2004, 00:14
Bulletin Boards : these could be very useful, especially in the 'starter' areas. It is a bit sad only being allowed one shout per reset or whatever if you are running two or three characters (for the variety, e.g. a tank, an archer, and a bard) and so cannot advertise a second if you feel like a change. Also useful for new players (who are NOT necessarily newbies) who have not yet built up a few contacts and party-mates.
Bulletin boards have come up before a long time ago. I was thinking along similar lines and while they sound like a nice idea, they cause far more problems than they solve.
People use them for trivial things, they need to be everywhere as the world is huge and they require maintainence time that can be better spent doing other things. They are far less use than you might think for finding a party (i considered this after i made the same suggestion and it makes sense) because the notices are very quickly out of date. You move on to distant parts of the server or have logged off before your mate reads the notice, etc. This means that those people who did bother to use them would only find them useful as they intended a fraction of the time.
This was the state of play regarding that issue in the past. I assume it remains the same now. You can achieve much the same result with tells to players that you know when they log-on :)
If you examine the posts on the Feedback and Suggestions thread you'll see a number of arguments for and against Bulletin Boards. :
http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php3?s=&postid=3132768#post3132768
Talen Greymarck
18-11-2004, 14:33
I am sorry to hear that, Fasin. I see your logic, and obviously you've been there. It is just too bad that we don't have some way of communicating messages that are not directed at any one player in particular. For instance, it would be nice if we could leave warning messages regarding certain nefarious characters, or leave "advice" from a more experienced character to Jr. characters, or even official records of major events (a great scroll or book in the Rivendell library for example) so that a kind of real history of a particular town or area could be kept. How interesting that would be to read about players and times gone by! Never really thought of a BB system replacing tells or being used for party meetings, but rather just as something that could give a little depth to the world. Hopefully someday in the future a person more brilliant than I comes along with a way to implement such a thing effectively.
peterjer
23-11-2004, 13:03
when i allways play on utt then i turn winamp on and let the lotr soundtrack play because when i play it its like i feel even more in the world of lotr on the server....only there are some problems when i do that well most ofthe time i lose connection when i have winamp so here it comes.....wouldnt it be a great idea to make an hak with the lotr soundtracks for the server its just gives agreat atmosphere and the music is beatifull....im not really good with haks and the aurora engine (my friend explained it to me over dozen times by now still dont get it) but is it possible that you could do such a thing in utt2......
We could, but there is a small chance we could get sued :P
So I'd rather not take that chance :)
peterjer
23-11-2004, 13:38
you could be really sued for that?
thats big nosnes and when its true then why you guys are not sued for copyrights on the names?
I think you'll find that Tolkien and his estate have never copyrighted the names because thats all they are - names. However the music from the films was created specifically for the films and comes under normal music copyright laws. If its illegal to download music (from certain sources) for your own personal use, how are the owners going to feel about people attaching it to a computer game that many many people could access.
Its the actual contact of the book as a whole that is copyrighted - and book copyright law is much more lenient than music copyright law. It is possible to copy/quote a certain percentage of a book without infringing copyright, however the same doesn't stand for music.
Well LOTR has been around for over half a century now and with such a huge fanbase, names of people and places have become almost a part of the language. UNOFFICIALLY you might call it public domain. OFFICIALLY it is the intellectual copyright of the Tolkien estate. Fan sites are non-profitmaking so they tend to be left alone. Some get closed down if they persist in hosting copyrighted material, such as the works of Tolkien artists for example.
But if we were to rip off the soundtrack of a major motion picture with the legal clout that New Line Cinema could weild, I think we would be on extremely thin ice there :P
Doing it for personal use isnt even strictly legal, but distributing it to a mass audience (which this would be classed as) could lead to trouble IMHO :)
HAHA cross post
QUOTE: It is possible to copy/quote a certain percentage of a book without infringing copyright, however the same doesn't stand for music.
You wouldnt think so with the way that so many artists in the music industry, beg borrow and steal from talented musicians :P
Recently I have downloaded a lot of NWN portraits from the net and would like to use them in UTT2.
Is there any way of finding out or letting players know what portraits UTT2 will support?
peterjer
24-11-2004, 21:41
ghost81 you must have a dull live like a lawyer i guess
no, but i work in an enviroment were printed text copyright is quite impotant. that aside the point still stands about what ca happen when you use music unlawfully in the public domain.
funniest thing is i know most of this copyright stuff from when i was a teacher, as it was deemed very important for teachers to know, it very rare to meet a teacher who isn't aware of text copyright laws.
peterjer
25-11-2004, 18:48
well i make my own stuff and here its not that important its just stuff for classes im not publicing well it would be diff when i was publicing some stuff that was not mine own and was it publicing in the students newspaper.......
Will the exp amounts from critters be toned down?
I think it is way too easy when you can get 300 exp from 1 basic monster, there should be some cap like 50 except on unique npc´s, dragons etc.
I have also noticed that system that deacreases the amount of exp if you´r not in a party increases amount of parties and rp alot.
If this subject has been discussed somewhere else already im sorry, i didnt find the thread.
XP is currently set at the same levels. If you are getting 300 xp for basic monsters, its because you are fighting something with a high challenge rating. I cant control what people choose to fight.
If i find a simple quick means of rewarding parties more, I will.
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