Tolkien Discussions

[ghost81]

As some of our discussions on all things tolkien seem to be taking over other thread (such as the RP thread) I decided to start a thread here for such discussions, for when they reach that point where they're no longer related to the thread they are in.

So I thought I'd start lets discuss magic in Tolkien. (This probably won't effect the game in any way, so I'm not looking for people to say we shouldn't have any magic users, I just enjoy discussing all things Tolkien).

One of the main reasons that Arda isn't full of magic, I believe, is because Tolkien was trying to create a historical mythology for England. Therefore he kept magic to a minimum so as to make it more 'believable'.

Oh this should be interesting, lets see what you all think.

[Fasin]

Fasin: Transferred from the RP Concerns thread:

Originally posted by TheStoryteller01
You mean its legitimate to introduce 1st lvl ME characters whos skill tree is based on one the 20 greatest leaders of the free people? Whats next? Claiming that Tom Bombadil has become head of the *Academy of Natures Ways & Undead Controlling* to teach young adventurers?

No please! Personally I dont mind someone playing the D&D archetype cleric, paladin or necromancer - I just mind that someone telling me Tolkien would have used such a character in any of his books and just *forgot* to mention it.
I think that you are taking this way to literally. If there is a legitimate RP reason for a character to be in a MERP environment then it is more than welcome. To assume that the sum total of a world as rich, diverse and vast as Middle Earth is described in the journey of 9 characters on their own personal paths and encounters that they have along the way, is not to do that world justice. We are not exactly trying to play a remake of LOTR. Its a matter of allowing for peoples tastes to vary and considering what fits in the world even if its not in the books. A lot of whats in the books we cannot duplicate in NWN, weve got most of it to be sure, but people need some variety in both characters and creatures or things will become very repetitive and predictable.

To say that by creating a Paladin you are emulating the career path of a legendary ME hero is absurd. You are creating a Paladin, a virtuous Lawful Good fighter in heavy armour. If you want to do that its fine, there are examples of many Tolkien characters (especially in the Silmarillion) both elves and men, that could be considered paladinesque. Tolkien never refers to them as Paladins, but its a pretty safe bet that he never rolled one either.

We just do the best we can with the tools NWN gives us. Its not designed as a MERP game. Theres been a lot of effort put into making the mod as Tolkienesque as possible and as accessible in that framework to as many players as possible. I know quite a lot about Tolkien's world but i realize many players who like it here do not know as much. Maybe they dont want to play a 'cliche-ridden' character, so they choose one that suits their own style of play. As I say plenty of effort has gone into making as many character types viable and to give them a place in UTT1. That effort has been made for a reason. I hope that effort has not been wasted.

When UUT2 comes along the palette will be more Tolkienesque than it is now, Im sure that JRRT never intended for there to be characters in his stories like the ones we will be able to have when the new Prestige Classes are available, but they fit very nicely into Middle Earth.

If we stick to a hardcore LOTR character structure we will just see a bunch of clones running about on the server, and we would be utilizing about a fifth of what we can do with NWN.

JRRT never describes the lands of Rhun or Harad in any great detail. Following that logic we shouldnt dare to expand on the information available and make educated guesses as to what could be there. Should we simply not bother with them then, seeing as when they get done they will have to come directly out of Kev's head... Surely we can expand on Middle Earth's cultures and professions and still remain true to the spirit of Tolkien. :)

In essence, by playing in this server, that exactly what each and everyone of us is, or should be doing. None of our characters are mentioned in LOTR :P

[TheStoryteller01]

I am not saying there shouldnt be clerics, pallys and mages as ordinary proffessions in a ME environment or that I want to play a rerun of LOTR.

I am having a great time on your server (although my PC has some troubles with the graphics card that make it crash quite often) and sure I like striving through the places I've read about a dozen times.

Its just that one can't have it all. Talking to Galadriel in Lorien (or at least trying to) followed by a friendly chat with a mage, cleric or necro by the campfire is NOT consistent. The setting of UTT IS EXACTLY LOTR (the one setting we dont want to replay, remember?) so 70% of character classes just dont fit. As you say, there are limitations and the online world is designed as good as I can imagine regarding architecture and encounter design.

This doesnt spoil my fun at all - But a fact is that we are playing D&D 3rd(?) Ed characters on the map of ME instead of LR. Which is fully in the tradition of ME games. Even the first official Middle Earth RPGabout 20 years ago used battle mages, clerics and D&D style bards.

Some posters sound like they find my opinion offensive and truly believe JRRT himself would give his signature for this PW. Well, apart from some beautifully crafted miniatures I strongly doubt that there'll be anything at all that he would *officially* approve.

But on the other hand I am sure he would have liked to play NWN online and this server would be the first one he'd visited. :)

And now its time to check the plans about UTT2 *drool*

[ghost81]

Two things. Firstly I think most of us do want to play in the world described in LotR, but not to follow the story in LotR. So we do enjoy the LotR setting, without the need to follow the path of the fellowship.

Second - back to magic in tolkien. There is a good arguement and supporting theories for the fact that Tolkien actually saw magic as somthing inherent in all people, but that most couldn't unlock it. Or at least not unlock much of it.

One thing to support this (there are more but if i spend my time listing them all its not really a discussion)

a) when describing hobbits Tolkien says 'There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly...' (The Hobbit), Bilbo finds a ring of power, and all it allows him to do is become invisible - just boosting the 'magic' that, as a hobbit, he already has.

So the magic is there (although not in a NWN form), but is not somthing most unlock, especially not conciously.