UTT2 Final Magic + Base Class Settings

[DM_Kev]

We have just finished a staff meeting where the topic was magic and base classes.

The following are agreed settings for UTT2:

Classes:

- A maximum of 2 classes may be selected. (No more triple classing) Completed multiclass character must have at least 10 levels in each class.

- Monks must be pure Monk class.

- Fighter may not multiclass with wizard

- Barbarian may not multiclass with fighter

- Barbarian may not multiclass with wizard

- Fighter may not multiclass with Sorcerer

- Barbarian my not multiclass with Sorcerer

With the success of the anti spell spamming system, it has been decided that a similar lock will be employed for all 'popular heavy damage offensive spells' - this will create even more variety in spell use. Spells included:

- Firebarand
- Chain Lightning
- Horrid Wilting
- Finger Of Death
- Issac range
- Ice Storm
- Wail of the Banshee
- DB Fireball
- Weird
- Meteor Swarm

- Because of the awesome damage potential spell casters now weild, metamagic will be disabled from the game.

Bigbies Range - 50% shorter duration and a reflex save to be added.

Dispelling - DC's to be increased for higher level casters. (Glaurung shall rise again!)

- Epic Warding - 1500 dmg absorbsion reduced to 500 dmg.

- Contaigion will recieve a dc increase for higher level casters

- Timestop will be disabled

- Word of Faith's blind will be replaced with a daze.

There had been a lot of concern raised over the power of spell casters in UTT2. I hope these will quieten these concerns :)

[Ptolomy]

Widening the range of popular spells can only be a good thing.

EDIT: Edited by request of poster

[peterjer]

well it will be possible to transferr our characters from utt to utt2 and will it be possible to change the classes for the new classes...
cause i have a knight only hes fighter/champion of torm and i want to change the champion of torm class with the new class rider of rohan would there be such option too do that?

[peterjer]

not fireball...youre not serious are you......its such a coooooool spell..........youre real serious.......are you?
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
who screams with me?
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[DM_Kev]

We only did it to DB fireball. All we did is add a timelock to it so it cant be spammed. I cant see the problem here.

[Khazadhea]

Hmmm nice changes ;) will be interesting not to see mages running around in armor casting spells like it was the most natural thing in the world... And Kev, any idea when you think you can release all(well not all but most anyhow ;) ) the changes in the classes in one and the same post so one can check out what kind of character you're going to make and what his backround will be like. Trying to remember what classes are changed and which ones not... :D 'cause this post focused most on wizards and fighter/wiz... could be good to know what the rules are for shadowdancers(are they in UTT2?) shifters and the like. Perhaps you have already written such post in which case I most humbly beg for forgivness and not to turn me into a penguin...Bah! ;)

[SNarfel]

Cool.. I think this will make it much more fun to play a wizard...

[clone number 3]

Like you need any encouragement Snarfel!:P

[ghost81]

I think the 'Fighter may not multiclass with wizard' and 'Barbarian may not multiclass with wizard' is meant to include sorcerer as well, but i may be wrong. However if Sroc/ftr can multiclass it kinda takes away the reason to prevent wiz/ftr multiclassing. That reason being wizards in armour.

[SShadow]

hmm, that will make my single class wizard to be illegal in utt2, i wasn't sure do i want to keep him anyway. (Metamagic feats)
Same happens to my fighter/weaponmaster/barbarian...
Only my monk meets the reguirements, not at level 21.

well it will be possible to transferr our characters from utt to utt2 and will it be possible to change the classes for the new classes...
I have only 3 charachters, i have heard that many have more than that, so if everyone wants remake... It will take really long time before utt2 can really start.
Most of chars with hiding skills have choosed 3 SD levels, so they are out of game. Many Shifters choosed some monk levels, many archers choosed to be Arcane Archers... list continues...

- Because of the awesome damage potential spell casters now weild, metamagic will be disabled from the game.
About metamagic, all will be disabled or will you leave silenced magic like it was? Wizard will be kind of easy target if there is no protection against silence :bigcry: Have never seen it in PvP, but it can be potential problem for wizards :dead:

[DM_Kev]

If we disable metamagic, all effects under metamagic will be gone. The decision was more to do with the empower and maximise effects. With no resistances, mages will do more than enough damage with non-metamagic spells. Considering mages also have the easiest access to haste (with a massive duration for the highest level mage), Metamagic chain lightning followed by a juicy DB fireball could kill anybody, bar the highest of CON characters. So its best we leave it at basic spells.

Its also our way of making middle earth a lower magic world (the way it should be), without all but removing magic from the game. If we did that, I think our player base would be seriously shortened. We want the spellcasting classes to be VERY skilled too - playing a mage will require some thinking, as opposed to brainless spamming. With less magic available to melee classes, the mage will have a stronger role than ever in supporting the party with buffing spells. (mmm, mass haste)

By the looks of the poll, it seems a full wipe will take place. So I wouldnt worry about the situation with chars now, as the char/s you have on UTT2 will be brand new and in line with the new game system.

I will do my best to scoop all the info together to make a full post on all the changes. UTT2 will go online with a player manual too, so everything will be in that too , along with rules and good suggestions for playing in the gameworld.

EDIT: Updated the list for classes

[Ptolomy]

As Vinduil is currently a fighter/wizard I will have to take him back to the drawing board. The more I think about this the more I like the opportunity it offers to rearrange him to be closer to how I have been playing him.

Would it be acceptable to recreate him as a Bard?

I realise that this is quite a drastic change but I am beginning to think that this would be a good idea for several reasons:
- The personality he has developed in RP is quite suitable for a Bard, as is his background.
- The knowledge of Noldor tales I have played him as having would also make Bard more appropriate.
- I am keen to develop him as a someone who can support his party rather than be brilliant at one type of role, bard song and a focus on buffing spells would allow him to do this.
- The balance of combat and arcane skills he currently has would be neatly reflected by the bard class rules.

[DM_Kev]

As far as im concerned, you can do whatever you want with your new characters on UTT2. Its all from scratch, so it would get very silly and complicated if we started saying to people 'but your character before was not like that'.

Basically its up to you. If you are going for a recreation, go with whatever your most happy with. Personally, if your going for a party support character, bard would be my choice.

[dsan1]

does "a maximum of two classes" include prestige classes or just the base classes?

[DM_Kev]

It includes prestige classes. So a legal multiclass character would be, for example;

Fighter/Weaponmaster
Rogue/Shadowdancer
Druid/Shifter

[Fasin]

:) thats good to hear - i suppose some reasonable combos will have to fall by the wayside or we would be swamped with a list of prohibited class combinations. It could end up growing and growingso this is good from the point of view of clarity and simplicity.

Might be worth adding that there will also be certain dual class cobos that are considered inappropriate, I think we all know which they are :P

[DM_Kev]

A number of innapropriate combos have already been disabled I believe. *Looks at Avalyn for approval*

[DM_Longbeard]

Rest assured there are scripts to be implemented to prevent cheesy building of characters.

Full list of restrictions will be updated when it is finalised in the scripts.

LB

[Avalyn]

*Looks around with arms folded and a mean look on his face*

the Majority of Prestige Classes from the normal game are being removed.

[Argon Balros]

perhaps you could enlighten us to which ones are staying :~

[zimith]

The class restrictions are great and generally necessary for a Tolkien setting, as I see it. It's a sign that the develpoers of UTT2 takes Middle Earth seriously. What I don't understand is why, for instance, Barbarian/fighter or elf barbarians aren't allowed, but clerics and monks are. The two latter classes completely lacks any connection to any Tolkien work, MERP book or rpg, while the former are very much withing limits of the setting:)

[DM_Elbereth`]

My own feelings on barb/fighter and elf barb's:

barb/fighter -- "once a barbarian, always a barbarian" kind of describes how I feel about it. Being a barbarian implies some sense of 'fighting outside the rules', they fight well, but it's untrained fighting that comes naturally to them. Scrapping, really, not army-trained fighting. The 'army-trained' quality is what I see in a fighter.. so combining the two classes.... Well, it seems rather odd that a character could embody such *different* styles of fighting - it's like the saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". That's just my feeling..

Elf barbarians -- the thought of this makes me laugh. :) Can you imagine one of Tolkien's elves living a "barbarian" lifestyle? Rangers, by all means... barbarian, nuh-uh. The thought of an elf in smelly furs eating a roasted chicken messily, tearing it into shreds with his teeth and letting it's fat drip all over the place and not caring..... that doesn't really fit in my imagination ;)

Clerics and monks though do.. Both being very dedicated, spiritually centred types. Elves are renowned healers - why shouldn't they be clerics?

I certainly find them being clerics or monks a *lot* more feasible than being a barbarian :) But that's just my impression of what a Tolkien elf wouldn't be caught doing.. they might be out in the wilderness, but in the sense of a ranger, not a barbarian...

[DM_Kev]

DM Elbereth certainly speaks for me on the barb/fighter and elf barb front.

As the lead developer of this project, it was my intention to put clerics in the role as healers. Healers fit in well with Middle Earth and I feel that this role is neglected as nwn clerics have access to some potent offensive spells. It is my intention at some point to disable the clerics mass effect offensive spells to promote the classes selection for its ability to heal its party.

Monks, ok not entirely pro tolkien, I admit, but the reasons Luth gave are sufficient for me to justify keeping them provided their numbers are low as it would make the server class spread an unrealistic representation of Middle Earth. The number of monks is partly kept low due to the very basic range of monk equipment available.

[zimith]

Originally posted by DM_Elbereth
My own feelings on barb/fighter and elf barb's:

barb/fighter -- "once a barbarian, always a barbarian" kind of describes how I feel about it. Being a barbarian implies some sense of 'fighting outside the rules', they fight well, but it's untrained fighting that comes naturally to them. Scrapping, really, not army-trained fighting. The 'army-trained' quality is what I see in a fighter.. so combining the two classes.... Well, it seems rather odd that a character could embody such *different* styles of fighting - it's like the saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". That's just my feeling..

Elf barbarians -- the thought of this makes me laugh. :) Can you imagine one of Tolkien's elves living a "barbarian" lifestyle? Rangers, by all means... barbarian, nuh-uh. The thought of an elf in smelly furs eating a roasted chicken messily, tearing it into shreds with his teeth and letting it's fat drip all over the place and not caring..... that doesn't really fit in my imagination ;)

Clerics and monks though do.. Both being very dedicated, spiritually centred types. Elves are renowned healers - why shouldn't they be clerics?

I certainly find them being clerics or monks a *lot* more feasible than being a barbarian :) But that's just my impression of what a Tolkien elf wouldn't be caught doing.. they might be out in the wilderness, but in the sense of a ranger, not a barbarian...

What you describe is indeed what I also feel about barbarians. But why couldn't someone who has started her training as one such, change his ways of fighting, or indeed living? That's an important multiclass rp reason the way I see it:) And the two classes certainly aren't that far apart in a way that wouldn't make multiclassing a valid option?

As far as Tolkien vs. monks and clerics goes, they simply aren't there. If monks were just fist fighters or warriors who use their body to fight (pretty much unheard of in the Tolkien mythology as far as I know, but still not an odd thing), it would be just fine. But the D&D monks are something way different. If this class could easily adapted into something else, I would be cool with it, but as it is, their quasi asian/martial artist approach is so present throughout their entire list of abilities that they feel very "not Tolkien" in my eyes. An example would be "Um... did you ust kill that ent by kicking/strangling/punching/squeeze it to death?"

The role of gods in Middle Earth (at leat in 3rd age) is very very subtle. They are rarely even mentioned in the books describing that era. The very basis of D&D/NWN clerics is exactly the opposite; the gods and their schemes are very much present in the daily life in a whole different way. In ME 3rd age they are more like a mystical force, rarely mentioned in other terms than myth and legend. The notion that they would grant visible and devestating magical powers to their "followers" or "representatives" is very odd imo. And that's the foundation on which NWN clerics are built. Moreso, it's so present and so visual in the abilities granted to the class that it's very hard to explain as something else in any remotely successful way. The only ME context in which I could see this class as something remotely believable is among Saurons followers, but generally, priests and clerics simply don't exist in the Tolkien mythology as far as I know. Perhaps "Wise men/women" would pass, but playing the flash bang NWN cleric as such would simply be too much of a strain on my imagination, I think:smurf:

[DM_Elbereth`]

Since when do you have to worship a god in order to know what herbs are good to use for X wounds/diseases?

As far as monks go, I gave a summary of how I tend to interpret them here: http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=309485

I don't at all think of the classes in terms of what they might be in D&D and how that can apply here - others might, but I don't. It's just... not the way I think. If you start out thinking "I want to play a cleric," and then think of what they would do in a D&D setting, you're just not going to get an effective Tolkien cleric.. "flashbang" clerics, as you put them, are certanly not my idea of Tolkien - but the point really is, just because a class in NWN can do something... you as the player do not have to play it that way, especially here.. Sure, a cleric of mine may be able to "pray to her gods" and have meteors flying all over the place... but only as far as NWN is concerned. There is absolutely no way at all that I would play one in that fashion.

I tend to work in the following way:

1) Think of the role my character might likely play.. wanderer, healer, shieldmaiden.....

2) Take a class that most suits that characters style..

3) Play the character, not the "stereotypical" class.

The point is that you the player have control over your character, forget the game mechanics as much as possible and roleplay :) You're not restricted to playing a 'flashbang' cleric just because it is possible in NWN.

[trinita69]

just a noob question ...

Can a sorcerer multiclass?

thanks

[SNarfel]

Yes, but not with fighter or barbarian.

If you havent done so already you may want to have a look at the MERP Player Handbook (http://www.silverswords.co.uk/Player%20Manual.pdf) which states classing restrictions.

[trinita69]

i'm not sure about that , infact I tried to biclass in cleric , or ranger or druid... but what happened is just to loose the xp over the lv ...

In practice ... every class which is allowed to use any armor cant be choosen .... so i was scared to take the light armor feat ... because i wasnt sure to break the whole character....

[SNarfel]

Seems I've missed something then, hopefully someone can shed light on your problem.

[DM_Gwaihir]

I'm probably wrong but I'm not aware of the multi-class restrictions having been changed. I can certainly think of at least one active sorceror/rogue.

Might it be that your character does not meet requirements for the classes which you have so far tried to take? Cleric, druid and ranger require certain minimum stats.

If you like, I'll take a copy of the current single class character so you do not have to worry about it breaking.

Having said all that, personally, I'm not too keen on sorcerors multi-classing at all. The RP behind sorcerors is probably the most challenging of all classes in the Middle Earth setting. It is perhaps most appropriate for elven mages and evil human necromancers. These two stereotypes seem to fit best with Tolkien's world to me and would still be extrememly rare. Characters with backgrounds different from these two would be even more infrequent and require an extraordinary focus on their lore (in whatever unusual form it took) to explain their powers. Such focused characters would be unlikely to have had the time to develop skills of any other kind. For me, it is hard enough to imagine a human sorceror in Middle Earth who is not a necromantic slave of the dark powers. Therefore multi-classing one seems inappropriate in almost any case. That's just me though :)

[Silverleaf]

Ranger/Sorcerers, Paladin/Sorcerers, Fighter/Sorcerers and Barbarian/Sorcerers are all prohibited classes. I'm not too sure, but I think the only two classes that a sorcerer can multi-class with are Bard and Rogue.