UTT2 - Death System

[DM_Kev]

Just finished playing with the script. Not a huge deal has changed. The process is all the same. But the penalties are heavier.

- IF YOU DIE AND RESPAWN -

Gold Penalty = Player Gold x 0.5 (Maximum 100,000gp)

EG.1. Dead player has 10,000 gold, player loses 5,000 on respawn.

EG.2. Dead player has 300,000 gold, player loses 100,000 gold on respawn.

XP Penalty = 200 x Character Level

EG. Level 10 respawns = 2,000 xp loss.

[ghost81]

Sounds good, just wanted to check is there block so you can't lose levels through dying?

[DM_Kev]

Should be. That part of the script was left unchanged.

[ghost81]

good, good, only asked cos I played somewhere where you could be delevelled and my favourite characetr ended up being illegal cos was delevelled wearing equipment for his new level - very very annoying.

I've never had anything like that here though I'm happy to say.

[Fasin]

well - looks like i wont be dying then :P

[morez]

what do you think about the idea of first getting wounded represented as beeing dead with minus HP and till your HP are not lower than -10 (it should sink every round) you can be healed?? considering this script allows fun and tactical fights also for lower levels so higher levels will get hurt often more than -10 and so they are still dead instantly.....
i like the idea of using more healing kits to help others and support the party play
(i already suggested this at the potion thread but i want to hear your opinion kev)

[peterjer]

i played on an server with that system whats morez is teling it was real fun when you had regeneration but i think death must be treated hard, life is not easy and why death should be easy..
i played once on an server with fate points you get some fate points in the begin and as you reach lvl 5 you start losing fate points by ecah time you die, you can earn fate points by good rp or by some major quests but the point is when you lose your fate points your character is dead off the server totally dead and since then their will be a grave for him(if he was a big hero he could get an whole big grave for him) so he could be rememberd as an lost DEAD hero.......

[ghost81]

I've played on a server that used Fate points like that, as did the roleplaying game it was based on. I still play on the server occasionally. In the past year I have never seen a character make it past level 8 because the world is tough, and they run out of fate points.

Now I've played some of our new areas, and they're much tougher than anything I've found in the world with fate points.

For this reason I'm against fatepoints. I like our world being tough, and our death penalties have been upped - but to lose your character because you went into new more dangerous areas, or because you never manage to get into a DM event - thats pointless.

The other thing that happens in the world I know of with Fate points now is pleople play in the nice safe areas and build their character slowly, rather than trying new things. This isn't going to be possible in UTT2 as the token system will make playing in easier areas unrewarding (as it should be). So my fear is a system like this would in fact put people off playing.

We're not (as a rule) powergamers here, but we all liek to see our characters progress, to lose them through no fault of our own would soon cause us to lose players.

[morez]

i dont know how rare resurection scrolls will be in utt2 but i personaly like the chance to heal or resurect other group members so you will get a better chance to encounter the big boss with total number..
of course life and so death isnt easy but this is a game and atr some points i prefer missing reality to get more fun (only at some points)
this healing kits just could used as res. spells for lower levels ( as i explainded higher levels will fight higher npcs. the big boss mostly makes too much damage so ýour HP will be usually under -10 or -5 what ever)
i just like the idea of beeing real wounded and unconscious before you die and you have to hurry too to heal your companion or he will die and only a wonder or mandos himself could resurrect him...
i dont know how much ressources this would cost even for the new server but i really enjoid this script at some lan sessions....
i actually want to hear kevs opinion if you have the time
hey kev dont think illuvatar had a lot of tea times while he was creating arda :)

[Fasin]

there was some discussion about becoming incapacitted at 0 hp and losing a point/round due to bloodloss unless stabilized. Death would not occur until -10 hp.

This is already a part of the game rules in PnP and might be a way of falling in combat without having to raise or respawn and would give healers a more important role to play. :)

It would be a good RP motivator and add a sense of drama to combat: "So-and-so is down, ill hold off the enemy while you tend to his wounds we have to stop that bleeding..."

Fate points are all very well in PnP but in NWN i think that players will be tempted to exploit any flaw in the game to avoid spending them.

[Argon Balros]

another idea when your badly wounded you bleed a 1/4of your lvl in hp every round until bandaged. so a lvl 40 would bleed at 10hp per round and a lvl 4 would bleed 1hp per round.

[Visardi]

That bleeding thing works fine in low lvls but in higher lvls when characters go down they rarely go down just by few points that would leave them incapacitated, usually they go straight to over -10 and would die anyway instantly.
So as the idea of bleeding from 0 to -10 is ok it really isnt worth the trouble IMHO.
What i would like to see is somme penalties from being heavily wounded, for example when your hp´s under 50 % you would get slight minuses to skills and ab and when you go down 25% of your hp´s you would be slowed down and get heavier minuses to skills, ab and spell failure chance.

[Argon Balros]

i almost posted the same argument about it being useless at higher lvls but then i started thinking about it and i think it would still make a difference upto about lvl 15 and as its going to take a lot longer to get up thaty high i think it will be effective for quite some time.

[Argon Balros]

perhaps the amount the minus goes down to before death could be the same as the characters con stat

[Fasin]

I agree - it does have more bearing on sub epic characters. But thats half the point. Most low level characters cant afford the expense of res/raise scrolls, considering how easily low level characters can get out of their depth and die. The system offers a touch more realism. personally id welcome a method of getting a badly wlounded comrade back on his feet that didnt involve raise or a visit to mandos. Theres few things more off putting to good RP than going through raise scrolls like they were netty paper. :P

[morez]

and i would eb glad too if the healing skill would be more useful
so i really never used it till now on this server...
the DC could be rather high to kit a really nearly dead "compadre"
my opinion is it would be great to introduce this script except of it would be too much ressources so better die than lag ;)

[DM_Kev]

We will be using the system I announced. I dont see the point with the -10 style systems. All your doing is giving a character 10 extra hitpoints. When you hit 0, your dead, easy :)

[Luinil]

Actually Kev, ones you hit 0 hit points you pass out and can have no influence on the fight anymore, but if you are with a group it gives you a chance of them reviving you without the use of a res scroll which is very nice for lower levels.

[Argon Balros]

another idea is using healing kits to raise dead players if you pass a high dc perhaps consisting of the dead characters lvl plus 20 i think you would also have to make it so it was only possible when their are no hostile creatures near by or it would most likely be be exploited.

[ghost81]

Again I believe the problem with these issues is scripting, and getting it running properly. A lot of effort, for tp be honest, not all that much return.

However I wouldn't be surprised to see the -10 thing as a built in part of NWN2. As 2 is based on DnD 3.5 which has the -10hp rules (i'm not sure but I think DnD 3 didn't use them). Also in 3.5 there is a feat (endurance I think) that will actually allow you to keep going and fighting until you hit -10 hp. Will be interesting to see if these make their way into NWN2.

[DM_Kev]

Call it what you like, your dead :P

[Argon Balros]

i think the idea of using healing kits to raise the dead instead of scrolls would be a good alternative and give an encuragement to use the healing skill,also an add on to the idea the dc to raise them could go up the longer they've been dead.

so in battle if someone falls everyone must rush to finish the enemy so they can help their fallen comrades, i think that would make the situation very exciting and i think making combat situations exciting is very important i hope you all agree.

[DM_Kev]

People will already invest in healing points to be able to heal more with the kits.

This goes back to the point of being dead. You cant heal the dead :P If you want to bring people back, you need raise/res scrolls. We dont want to make raising the dead too easy either - otherwise we are back to square one with player attitudes towards death.."oh someone will raise me, so sod it if I die".

Im leaving the system as I explained in the first post. If we find more could be done in UTT2, I may consider changes, but I feel that those heavy penalties will make players a lot more cautious and afraid of death. Res and raise will be available of course, but with the tight economy, I dont think many will be able to afford to carry piles of the scrolls.

[Visardi]

Healing skill is very good already, it doesnt give opponent attack of opportunity when used in combat and if kept maxed it heals quite alot.
Death should be taken seriously instead of like a small inconvenience which it would be if you could revive people with healing kits.

[Argon Balros]

thats why i sugested a high dc so it could only be done by people with high healing skill with a bonus healing kit,

also theres the sense of urgency i sugested perhaps there could be an auto respawn script after 15 minutes or perhaps less. because with the new higher penalties i think some people will just be tempted to stay dead till eventualy someone raises you, because i know i'd be tempted

[Visardi]

Well thats better idea i think, that auto-respawn would be good thing, i would say something like 5 minutes real time would be enough, this might reflect brain damage from lack of oxygen that only gods could mend =D
Ive seen bodies laying for few hours real time waiting for someone resurrect them, thats lame.

[Argon Balros]

well i know i've done it in the past died and just decided to go afk whilst still dead.

not sure if 5 minutes would be enough as some battles can last a while tho but i'm sure kev could work out a suitable time if he decides to include this sugestion.

[DM_Kev]

I do like the auto respawn idea. 5 mins does sound good to me aswell. The time limit has to be generalised for all situations, so most battles wouldnt last longer than 5 mins.

If people start shouting "res me", etc, then the DMs will just jump them to the start and double the penalty :P If they keep doing it we'll start banning :P

[Argon Balros]

perhaps the auto spawn time should be related to the lvl diference between the character and what killed him.

[DM_Kev]

Possible, but then you could argue; why should a level 1 who got killed by a bat (HAHA! Get off the server) have to immediately respawn when a level 19 who got killed by a devil get to wait 5+ minutes.

Level differences are not always that great either throughout the monster Range. This could lead to some very mixed and dodgy waiting times.

[Argon Balros]

i was thinking more about when a group faces a balrog or a dragon or somthing much higher lvl than the individul who died so that the group could res after the battle.
so perhaps it only made a difference if you where killed my somthing that had a challenge rating of impossible.

[Visardi]

No need to make it too complicated, that 5 minutes is long enough

[DM_Kev]

I'd agree with Visardi.

This comes back to my post recently on levels and characters in UTT2. We are trying to dumb things down a bit, so my thought on this issue is; why should a level 1 and a level 40 be treated any differently, in terms of the gameworlds main systems such as death? As I said before, if your dead, your dead :) Being level 40 doesnt entitle you to lie on the floor for a longer period of time :P

[Argon Balros]

i'm not sugesting that it does make a difference what i'm suggesting is if somthing kills you that is much harder than you it will take longer for the rest of the party to slay it so perhaps you should have longer before the auto respawn. i do agree with not over complicating it tho, i've never timed a fight before but perhaps it might be an idea if some of the utt2 tester time some battles to see if 5 minutes would be enough

[DM_Kev]

Cant say I agree though. The fights your referring to are supposed to be tough. If we are gifting people the opportunity to keep jumping up after 5 mins on the floor, it kind of takes the difficulty out of the fight because you will gradually wear the npc down, even though he could have potentially wiped the party out.

Its a tricky subject to be fair.

[morez]

last advertising for my suggestion of able to heal someone till his HP is -10 (maybe you will test it and use it in far future):

- i know this script well cause a friend builder always is using it and it works well

- as fasin explained it is a part of teh rule in PnP
- i dont want to advertise for 10 extra HP, if you want lets make the char unconscious when his HP is reaching +5 HP or whatever...

- it should be going very fast that the "bleeding wounded unconscious" char should die so there will be always the healing as a more iomportant part in combat and as RP subject..

- the point i like is the fact that you first hit the ground and bleeding around .. there should be always a chance to heal if you are fast and a good enough healer
- this would push parties...

- makes such big fun....and and and

don't want get on your nerves just say test it and consider about including this in far future

btw. i like this rule where you will respawn after 5 min. you want to include...
(ok one time i really enjoyed watching the battle against the balrog while i was actually dead but this very long fight was a exception)
good to have to hurry to raise your companions and no more telling someone to raise his char in the deepest far far away of middle earth.
so i am really ver glad but IMO would be much more glad if my suggestion would be considered

thanks for your work and for your ears (or eyes?)

[DM_Kev]

It will be something i'll consider if I find the death system in UTT2 to be inadequate. :)

[Argon Balros]

i can't see any downside to -10 idea if its easy to implement. it would enrich gamplay at lower levels

[morez]

fair point
i am so glad there is someone bringing that world to life i ever wanted to have like you kev
thanks

i'll ask my friend he implemtated this script in every of his modules if you are for real interested in that!!

[Bedovir]

/rantOn
I'm new to this server and I'm the only one of my usual mates that supports the current respawn penalty but it would sure be nice if the Raise Dead scrolls would bloody work! My friend died and the only two RD scrolls I had both failed! So that was a cool 2600 gold down the drain plus the gold she lost on respawn - hell of a hit for a couple of level 6 characters to take if you ask me - which you didn't ;)
/rantOff
Thanks for listening.

[Argon Balros]

i'm personaly very relived to see the price of raise dead scrolls has come down form the 4k it was in utt1 and so far WoooHooo i've not died once, well tecnicaly i died once but a dm made a mistake and spawned some super hard skelliys so i was ported back and exp restored so i don't think that counts :)

[ghost81]

The scrolls work as they have always worked here - they have a difficulty rating its DC5 for raise dead I believe. Outside of combat this is fairly easy, in combat its not - unless you're a cleric. It can be annoying when they fail, but if you finish off the enemy first it doesn't often happen. Also you always have the option ofrunning to get more scrolls, I'ev done this a couple of times now, and I think it adds to the party spirit. Both times one or more party member has fallen, others have stood guard while one of my characters have gone looking for help. I'ev found this good fun, and good RP.

[Fasin]

Even in the old mod with very high level epic characters using raise or res scrolls out of combat with no armour to encumber them and taking every possible precaution, the scroll can still annoyingly, disastrously, expensively, inconveniently, occasionally humorously, but most of all, unluckily fail.

[Karleta]

In my opinion the death system is fine as it is. The xp and gold penalties are harsh but I can see the reasoning behind it. The only annoying thing is when you go to Himling with another person and both of you get insta-killed by an ice elemental drowning you :furious:
Quite unfortunate to lose 1200xp to that but that's the way life is :)

[morez]

hey karleta there you are...
i missed you
remember Cûferedir?

[Karleta]

Indeed I do remember him. You'll be pleased to know that Kiera is back along with her hatred of elves :)

[morez]

great :)
but Cûferedir (or his son) will be only there if the elven bowaster will be introduced so i am glad to meet you again had one of the best PvP RP with ever.........
be careful HIPS is now for everybody hehe

[Prophet7]

I like the death system, but every time I try to save some gold for a good item I die and loose half of it. I was wondering if there was any way to make a bank in the game, so that ifyou are smart about it you can protect your investments?

[DM_Kev]

Hehe, the big question pops up again :P

Usual answer though. Banks will definately not be added

[Visardi]

There are other "ways" to store wealth than pure gold ;)

[san~raal]

wow, didn't realize how harsh loosing half your gold would be to a low level :eek:

[Beeline]

Just a tiddler to think about, i have heard that massive inventories can really slow down servers, there is one apparently who only allow players three bags for instance. With death penalties like they are we dont like losing gold on death, so the answer is to keep all the loot you find in your pack, and sell it when you need to buy something. This all adds up to massive inventories, and possibly a hit to the server ping. Personally id like to see gold dropped, all of it on death, if you get it back cos a freind grabbed it great, if you all got killed and the enemies got it buggers. Obviously a rule would have to be used in PvP so people dont go round just killing for the gold, but then again, that would definately happen in Middle Earth, a banf of Olog see some fancy looking elves with all gold tassles and stuff, they kill em for their wealth. Just the other day Scrill and some freinds had some PvP, which incedentally was a lot of fun, i bet they never seen so many diffrent spells used before:) Anyway, i respawned, but the others got raised, so i lost 16K gold, which i was happy to take, but in real terms, mny freinds would have picked up the bits i droped whn i died. Just a thought as it can be painful for the wrong reasons.

[ghost81]

I think that if we were to lose all gold on death we'd probably end up with players with even bigger inventories, which would be even more likely to hit the server ping. Death is very costly as it is - 200xp per level and 50% of your gold. From personal experience I only really carry gold until I have enough to buy whatever item it is I want next, and it can take a long time with that 50% hit on death, if that was upped to 100% (even with the option of others picking it back up for you) it would take even longer for people to save up for things, and I think it may be likely to encourage peopel to repeat and farm earlier areas.

If your going to lose all your gold when you die, surely the temptation will be to stay in less dangerous areas - maybe less rewarding - but where you know your gold is safe.

[DM_Kev]

The main source of 'gold saving' is stashing small, high value items in your inventory. So if you want to make some gold to buy something, you simply sell a diamond or an emerald and then you have instant gold.

I have a plan to combat this now :) I'll get an old friend to look at it soon. If players can't meet the gold requirement, random numbers of gems will be lost too.

[Azmar]

Just to throw my bit in....
I have played on a server, many moons ago now, that on death there was a chance of weapon/armour/equipment breakage. Something like this and the penalties already incurred would make people seriously think about they way they approach combat. This could be a good or bad thing dependant on the attitude of players. It would, for example, generate the opportunity for trade repairing or replacing these items, however for frontline hack and slash fighters (that are expected to die more frequently) this may be a final nail in the coffin of frustration.
I know that care will be taken before anything is put in place, but everyone should remember...that in the world reality *smiles* dead would be permanently DEAD! :skull:

Maybe something to discuss more if Kev and his team feel the need.

[DM_Kev]

The death system is already due some change thats being worked on still.

If I remember correctly, when you die, you will be sent straight to a hall. The only way out is by praying for release (which i think will require a skill check). You will be returned to the area you died if someone successfully raises your corpse.

Corpses may be carried too.

LB was working on this some time ago. Im unsure of its status at present, or even if I gave the correct details, but it was something along those lines.