View Full Version : Archers / Throwers
Players who favour ranged weapons seem to be fairly thin on the ground at the moment but I thought that maybe there should be a topic in which to discuss the various unique issues that they face. Tactics, character builds, weaponry etc. Here is one issue that most archers will probably feel effects them at the moment - ammunition.
I couldn't agree more with WreckSC's comments about bog standard arrows in TechSupport/Oversight. As far as I have been able to discover there is only one shop in UTT2 that sells normal arrows, the one in Bree (I suppose there is an equivalent in Dol Guldur but have yet to visit!). I am not sure but I guess the situation is the same with bolts, bullets, darts, throwing axes etc. Perhaps some shops in other centres should also stock non-magical ammunition? It only seems realistic and the rate a dedicated archer gets through arrows is hard to believe even without Rapid Shot.
On a connected point, I imagine one of the reason for the lack of normal ammunition is that higher level archers/throwers are expected to move on to better ammunition as they progress. If only this were possible! The expense of buying enchanted ammunition is crippling and I am fairly sure is more than melee types spend on all the extra healing equipment they need or than mages spend on scrolls etc.
I always keep an eye out for a chance to loot arrows and normally ask party members to do the same (for those who think that Vinduil's looting habits are a little over-eager this is the only reason why you might be right!). However, I still find that magic arrows need to be saved for emergencies and so have to use normal arrows most of the time.
Perhaps along with stocking normal arrows in some more shops it would be possible to tweak the magic arrow situation too? Two options spring to mind: first, reduce the cost of buying enchanted arrows across the board (not drastically but significantly); second, increase the amount of enchanted arrows available to loot.
Any feedback on the above comments or general pearls of wisdom on playing an archer/thrower will be much appreciated
:arrow:
Biiiig smeg up on my part!
Piling ammo into all weapon stores now!
Argon Balros
28-01-2005, 13:58
perhaps have it so the axe returns but theres a time delay before you can trow it again to represent having to pick it back up
hmm, dunno... Most of my dwarves are melee fighters - one has a bow, admittedly, but the other wouldn't touch a ranged weapon with a ten-foot pole... and the third only uses a 3-foot pole as a weapon... and...
Ahem...
In UTT1, I eventually decided to teach Gloin some ranged skills... I had at the time the luxury of affording legendary (+7) throwing axes, and carried some 10-15 stacks of them. For ages. I just never remembered to use them. ;) (and yes, Gloin *was* that strong)
I agree that 0.5 is quite a lot of weight for a single-use item that you need in large quantities for it to be useful... however, my sense of realism also wouldn't like magically returning weapons, and, let's face it, throwing axes are more unwieldy than arrows.
It would be great if you could in some way "collect" some of your missiles after a fight, possibly from the bodies... but that would require heavy scripting... so I don't know what to suggest, really.
Perhaps throwing axes could be easily craftable? With materials that are readily available? I mean the very basic ones... elves could fletch arrows, and us dwarvs can stick sticks into stones...?
Argon Balros
28-01-2005, 19:06
i think my idea could be a workable system that is realistic
the delay could be 5 minutes so you could only use each axe once per battle also they should have a range restriction
a once-per-battle throwing axe would be rather useless - you need about as many of them as you need arrows.
DM_Olórin
28-01-2005, 20:00
Point taken but in the real world warriors who used throwing axes had a couple, not hundreds. They arent much smaller than a hand axe which is a melee weapon. Throwing axes were not meant to be semi-automatic weapons that you could rattle off round after round. They would throw them at the advancing enemy, then close to melee.
Look at you stack of 50 as a single throwing axe with limited uses before it breaks.:)
Argon Balros
28-01-2005, 20:00
well when would you get a chance to pick it up when your in battle.
however there is nothing to stop you carrying several
i also think the axes should do more damage than they do at present
perhaps it could have a damage bonus
DM_Olórin
28-01-2005, 20:41
The throwers strength bonus is added. They are not intended for weaker characters, hense their weight.
Piling ammo into all weapon stores now!
Unless I'm becoming quite blind, I didn't see any normal arrows for sale in Tharbad or Rivendell. Seeing this point has been brought under attention more than a month ago, I hope you don't mind me asking to introduce them *smiles*
By the way, I really like the current xp scripts. The rewards in a party are exactly right at the moment. I must admit the roleplaying on this server has increased admirably since my last visit... even to that extent I got the itch again to recreate Danae and play a Bard again (go figure ;))
One other side-question: the musical instruments for sale in Tharbad are extremely expensive (over 2500 gold pieces). Do they even *do* something apart from making noise? Perhaps a more realistic price of 100 gold pieces for an instrument could be considered?
There is a limit, unfortuantely. The fact they have a property on them to do whatever gives them a minimum value which I cannot adjust.
They were copied directly from UTT1, so i will check over their prices.
Arrows were added to many stores, but it seems I missed tharbad. So i will sort this now.
Kev, I don't doubt you did add normal arrows to stores, but I find it weird there are none for sale in Edoras, Minas Tirith, Esgaroth, and Rivendell. Could you please add normal arrows to those smithies as well? For a character with a bow as first weapon, the magical arrows are too expensive to just shoot at every foe you encounter. Having to run to Bree or Tharbad (not entirely sure they're for sale there, by the way) every time I need non-magical arrows is a bit annoying... especially because it should be such a common item.
Edit: I just checked, not even the smithy in Tharbad has normal arrows :s That makes them only available in Bree :(
I play a Cleric Archer (Zen Archery) and I want Arrow crafting! :P
I think the arrow issue has been fixed for next update, I know it was being looked at, however Kev is computerless at the moment, so it woin't get uploaded till his comp is fixed.
Argon Balros
25-02-2005, 19:46
arrows weigh and cost buggerall so why not by a couple o thousand
actualy that gives me an idea how about if arows are only available from one or two places but sell for more at other shops so player can make money by buying arrows where there are plenty and selling them where their is a shortage this would solve the problem and give player somthing to do, perhaps the same thing could work with sacks of grain and the like (example: buy a sack of grain in bree 100gold sell it in minas tirith 500 gold)
Easy gold? The aim was a tight economy... I don't think this will be overly useful.
Argon Balros
26-02-2005, 04:22
the profit margin could easily be ajusted to maintain the tight economy
I very much doubt that a way of making money such as this will be added. Think for a moment about some of the things we've done here and the reasoning behind it:
1) Appraise effects removed from merchants - appraise was allowing people to sell things on for more than they bought them for, thus creating too much wealth.
2) Craftable items not being sellable in Merchants - to prevent players with craft skills making lots of items just so they can sell them to merchants for money.
One of the aims of UTT2 has been to prevent players from walking around with vast amounts of gold, buying items from the shops without a thought to the cost - we've reduced loot drops, we've upped the gold cost on death - all of these are to keep amounts of gold people have down. If we start having sliding scales in shops, allowing people to 'play the stock market' as it were, we'd soon end up with lots of people with lots of gold. Yes it would give players who aren't in a party somthing to do, but would take away from one of the main ideas of UTT2 - less wealth.
Argon Balros
26-02-2005, 11:55
well perhaps set it up as a repeatable mission?
I think the arrow issue has been fixed for next update, I know it was being looked at, however Kev is computerless at the moment, so it woin't get uploaded till his comp is fixed.
Sorry, I didn't know that. I'll patiently await the next few updates and the Coming of Arrows in Arda :)
There does not seem to be any normal sling bullets for sale in Bree. Tharbad smithy has +1 bullets, but these are expensive for starting characters (though a bargain for anyone with a bit of gold). Not checked Dol Guldur yet.
Hopefully will be in the next update :)
Appraise can be used without the risk of what you explained and I think it should be re-added at some point.
It opens up for characters who buy things from other characters and sell them to the merchants instead. Traders...
i think there also should be slings (actually every sling should have this) with the item property mighty considering the damage should depend on the user's strength
please explain me someone what's about slings are they faster than a crossbow or even than a bow.. what's the advantage of slings i havent found anything in the rules..
Argon Balros
26-02-2005, 18:48
you can use a sheild whilst fireing a sling
Absolutely, the big thing with slings is you can sling and shield. Which adds a lot to your AC. What more advantage could you want?
Playing with the toolset a bit, this seems to make the price of the slings go up rather dramatically. I'm not sure if you can adjust item prices arbitrarily, but having I don't think the general mighty bonus is feasible while keeping the tight economy we all know and love.
Perhaps a 'mighty' sling could be added as a craftable item. "Braided from the Hair of a Witch and the Gut of a Tiger, this sling whips its bullets out with great force" etc.
Perhaps if you could do the honours with the toolset Gloin?
*chuckles* Oh, I am not in charge of anything like that. You want the crafting item blueprints thread, if I recall correctly in the Player Content Team section, or similar. DM_Kev has to agree with the idea.
As far as I know slings don't need the mighty ability. They always add the wielder's strength bonus to damage and dexterity bonus to attack rolls.
So slings have the next advantages (if they follow the standard rules, which I believe they do):
* you can use them with a shield
* your strength bonus -if any- adds to the sling stone's damage.
I do not know which rate of attack slings use. According to 3.5 rules they should follow the same rules as crossbows (meaning only one attack/round instead of full attack actions with a bow), but I don't know how this got implemented in NWN.
Strength bonusses to damage should also be added to all thrown weapons. (Axes, daggers, shuriken)
ts true a sling does use the users Dex as its AB and the users strength as a damage bonus - thats why you don't see mighty slings.
A composite bow allows a character to add strength up to the describes bonus to damage.
A mighty Crossbow gives the mighty bonus to damamge.
Technically a Sling gives a lot more room for damage and attack bonuses than anything else.
But all this is by the by, I'm noticing a distressing habit from players to be number crunching, which isn't what MERP is about, its about the RP, myself personally I start looking at anyone who's number crunching quite closely, cos that ain't what we want here.
Slings get a str bonus - fact.
Secondly who gives a damn our world isn't about maximising damage its about RP - a fact some people seem to be missing.
hey hello dont let these differences between you us anyway...
i started this sling discussion cause i noticed i never really use a sling before and i dont know anything about it and its rules (unfortunately the NWN rules in the handbook are quite uncomplete; otherwise i would rather buy or dl a nwn handbook than the AD&D books:))
i think the problem is that noone really knows the NWN rules/maths
so my thougts just were IF there is a strength bonus anyway or not..
this is not meant to RP or for maxism it's just meant about a REALISTIC (i know realism is asked at a fantasy world:)) rule i dont really care about it..
i only wanted to tell you my thoughts that if you are stronger and use a sling the stone flies harder and therefore there will be higher damage
so dont quarrel about that..
peace :peace: and good night
DM_Longbeard
01-03-2005, 14:20
Kev - 'There is a limit, unfortuantely. The fact they have a property on them to do whatever gives them a minimum value which I cannot adjust.'
You can adjust the value.. there is an item proporty called base item value reduction or something similar.. this you add and the price drops :p
LB
Hmm. Really? I can't find anything like that mentioned. It would be very useful, however... Do you have a link to a nwnlexicon entry, or could you tell me the exact item property name?
Steve-Law
22-06-2005, 09:20
Just found this, what happened to normal ammo in shops other than Bree/Dol Guldor?
I have no idea. What happened to it?
(As in, is something wrong with it?)
Steve-Law
22-06-2005, 10:52
Well there isn't any (is there)? You can buy +1, +2, fire, vampire, piercing etc, but can't buy normal 1gp arrows anywhere but Bree (and DG). Unless I'm missing something. It was raised in the thread and Kev said it had been sorted (a while ago now) but they still aren't there.
I thought that one of the Tharbad shops also sold them. I believe that the problem was that each shop only had one set of each per a reset rather than an infinite amount.
OK, I'll look into it. Never looked at how shops are done, so I suppose now is as good a time as any :)
thromnombulax
22-06-2005, 15:42
Any chance of looking into more readily available (ie , buyable) skeleton knuckles, holy water and crystals for trap making too? pleeeeeeese :)
The Tharbad fence used to sell em, but dont no more
They don't strike me as items you would find very easily for purchase. I will look into making them more readily dropped by monsters, however.
thromnombulax
22-06-2005, 20:21
Flasks of acid and oil and thunderstones are available from all merchants .. if thunderstones are then why not crystals are my thoughts and they *were* available to buy until recently (well until we pointed out that little discrepancy with the snares/crystals to your worthy self it seems)... cheers aule i miss them crystals they make a rogues life bearable *sob*
Not quite sure what you're suggesting -- are you saying we should make kits cheaper?
In principle, there's no reason why we shouldn't make kits more easily available. I remember people asking for them to be sold in packs of 5 and 10 -- is there still demand for this?
Edit: Reading that post again, I see what you mean. Yes, sure, we'll make healer's kits more readily available.
Steve-Law
27-06-2005, 07:35
Packs of 5/10 healing kits? Absolutely. As long as you have the money I think most people buy them in batches.
And along with arrows/bolts/bullets, don't forget darts and other missiles weapons...
Aule's to-do list just keeps growing :)
The healing kits in Esgaroth and Erebor is a nice suggestion, saves people having to back-track miles to the closest town to get more.
Argon Balros
27-06-2005, 09:20
yes theres definatly a demand for them to be sold in packs
Silverleaf
30-06-2005, 10:40
A possibility for "pack" arrows could be to increase the amount of arrows in a quiver past 99 via leto. I've used this in Local vault servers so that I don't have to carry a thousand quivers of arrows, but instead just have one quiver of 65535 arrows. Perhaps arrows could be sold in hundreds, say 500 arrows? Of course, the price would increase.
Nice idea, but a load of tosh! It is bad enough having to get my head around people carrying a large number of swords and armour. But carrying that many arrows, you would look like a pin cushion!
Common Sense, comes to mind. Perhaps the idea of buying a few bundles of arrows sure. But carrying more than a 10 bundles would be stupid. You are never going to get through over 1000 arrows in a very busy trip. Let alone 65k! Be reasonable.
Arrows wil remain as they are. I see no reason why more should be in one 'set'.
It is indeed common sense, despite the game is already overly generous in the amount of equipment you can carry. Allowing for larger bundles of arrows would plunge the game into a greater depth of unrealistic inventories.
thromnombulax
30-06-2005, 16:28
Hmmm
Arrows dont weigh enough, maybe; my 2 archer characters carry an inventory page full and one and two bags full to no ill effect on encumbrance except INV space and bag weight.... i always "played this" (considered it myself) as us archers remove any servicable shafts from the fallen foe after each encounter, so even though our INV says we have 2000 arrows, we perhaps have five dozen stout re-usable shafts (which will still degrade over time or occasionaly be unsalvageable and thus need replacing).
I dont recall ever using over 1000 arrows in a "trip" (i definately have in a session, though) but i know i have used 500 on a short journey (rapid fire and potions of nessa mean they use 5 arrows a round if they stand still...hence the joy now that "normal" arrows are more widely available). I think the weight of a bag full of shafts is acceptable, though i admit sometimes it would be better to have to buy "just one pack of x amount" of arrows rather than have to go through the motions with the merchant for each set of 99. It can be an ache to buy them, then move each set of 99 to the "usual" INV page, for instance.
Maybe this is what Silverleaf is referring to, as Steve-Law has previously.
It isnt particularly paramount in my mind regarding potential improvements [steadfastly avoids mentioning anything remotely connected with t***s], but i admit it would be nice to be able to buy a bigger bundle once rather than smaller bundles twenty times.
Sixty-five thousand , though.......
heh :)
thromnombulax
30-06-2005, 18:33
*-ally
a spelling error!!!!! oh my i really must lie down
Silverleaf
02-07-2005, 08:17
I never said *anything* about carrying 65k arrows. Read my post. I said I used it in local vault, but here at MERP perhaps they could be sold by the hundreds, perhaps 500. If that's too much, perhaps even 250 would suffice. All this would do is to prevent the hastle of carrying 2 inventory pages full of arrows, instead only having to carry half a page.
thromnombulax
02-07-2005, 10:45
Yeah i thought that that was what you meant mate :)
(whats local vault? and where can i get one? are they cheap this time of year ;)
I think you made the biggest misinterpretation here. I implied that there will be no changes to arrows (and other stackable items for that matter). Not now, not ever.
Sure, I don't belive you meant many thousands of arrows, I think someone would have to have some sort of problem to consider that. But even to me, 99 arrows in a single set is a joke, but im willing to leave it. The last thing to expect is more in a set. But since this is a game, we have to be a little practical, so we leave it at 99.
You can argue that it saves inventory slots, but its frankly a very weak way to justify it. It would mean that many more arrows can be carried than you otherwise would and that more room will be available for other items you like to hoard. To conclude on that, a character can potentially carry even more truckloads of items for every possible eventuality.
With this in mind, the whole idea is not going to improve anything and is a waste of time.
Silverleaf
02-07-2005, 16:21
Like you said, this is a game, and most men can't carry 6 splint mails in their inventory, or hit an orc fifteen times with his super sword, only to see that the orc is only 'injured.' I'll respect your wishes, but I just wanted to make my point that some things should be stretched to make it a little more practical.
Throm: I can't tell if you're being serious or not, so let me explain. :p Server vault servers are servers like MERP UK, where characters are stored and developed on the hosting computer. Local vault servers are servers that allow characters to be brought in from your computer, custom ones that you have made. For example the pre-made characters that came with NWN, or server vault characters you have saved.
thromnombulax
02-07-2005, 18:29
No i didnt know. I see whatchya mean now though; like taking a pen and paper character "with you" when you move and joining in an existing campaign with it.
thanks for the heads up mate :)
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