good vs. evil

[underdarklord]

Hello again,

I would like to make the request for more options to change from good to evil or evil to good alignment. The only place where I know to do this is in Bree and I would like to more areas/npcs having this option.

I think having more of this will have more people actually read what the npc's are saying, because god knows sometimes I don't :)...I suck

Can the DMs just change a persons alignment or does the pc need to remake the character to change his/her alignment?

Crap I just remembered there is a requests topic that I should have wrote this down at, my apologizes my friends

Thanks

p.s. Bedovir I would like to speak with u, I haven't seen ya on UTT2 in a while was wondering when you were coming back...

[Bedovir]

Originally posted by underdarklord


p.s. Bedovir I would like to speak with u, I haven't seen ya on UTT2 in a while was wondering when you were coming back...

I sent you a p.m. underdarklord :)

[morez]

i totally agree with you underdarklord

i also considered to change the alignment in far future..

i guess it will be easy to change your alignment as there are a couple of alignment changing events (bagger in bree)

one thing i am not sure about:

if i change my alignment with my lvl 20 char (i have none :) ) i wont have done all the beginner quests of teh faction so what shall i do

would like to get feedback here....

[Argon Balros]

traiters are never truly trusted by either side

[ghost81]

Not necessarily true in Tolkien - the Ringwraiths were technically traitors - although corrupted by the rings. The black Numenoreans were men who changed alignment to support Sauron. But more significantly the Mouth of Sauron (again a black Numenorean) was a traitor - yet look at the position of trust he holds in the camp of Sauron.

[ghost81]

Been thinking about this a bit more and the change in alignment might not necessarily be treachery - what if someone has been RP-ing a character who was sent to spy and observe others. One way of doing this with a new character would be to give them a good/neutral alignment - but at some point they will want/be required to return to the fold - however their alignment - which if doing things properly they will have been playing to so as to infiltrate the enemy will now be incorrect. I think some leeway for changing alignment would be good - if its for the right reasons.

[Cullkett]

is there no way to disuise your alignment/faction it would be nice to be able to walk the streets of minas tirith with my assassin maybe with the risk of the gaurds randomly questioning strange types (give you a chance to use your bluff skill) if your found out you could be then killed or imprisoned( this could lead to a jail break quest for the oppossing faction)
this would not be doable in rivendale but maybe just the human citys or encampments.
just a thought anyway.

[Argon Balros]

perhaps you could have the chance to convince the guards to let you into minas tirith using bluff and persuade skills

[DM_Olórin]

Nice idea guys... :)

However, it would be an amusing way to set about a faction invasion, a queue of evils Bluffing their way into Minas Tirith, magic buffed and swords drawn, glagging potions of Eagles Spendour, an Olog-hai downing a barrel and a half of the stuff... :P

But seeing as faction invasions are to be DM run it might not be a problem. As to simply getting in to spy. The idea has certain merits. It would have to be RPed as well as scripted. An evil character in full regalia shouldnt just be able to trick the guards as to his good intentions. A half convincing disguise would be in order, again thats a RP issue more than anything else. Scripting such peaceful cross faction interaction may be difficult and Im not qualified to comment on that.

Ive always rather liked the potential of adding dungeons and jailhouses. I think its come up before on the forums. Bree would probably lock miscreants in the gatehouse as they wouldnt have a formal prison, Minas Tirith and Tharbad probably would have purpose built cells under the Town Hall or Guardhouses.

[Cullkett]

i would like to see some quests for stealth/assassin type characters spying would be a good non combat quest get into apposing faction area and gain infomation from the watch or even sneak into the town hall spy on the mayors/captains plans for defense of the city.
Maybe some burgularys steal from the wealthy merchants in minas tirith.
kidnap could be also be a good quest for evil stealth characters demoralise the the enemy by stealing away there family members and holding them for ransom it would also give the good peoples a chance to fight there way into a evil faction area for a dramatic rescue.
i have no idea about scripting(dont even know what scripting is heh) but its just a few ideas anyway sure you guys know whats fesible and whats not :)

[GammaGm]

I think conversions of alignment and belief aught to be possible for RP reasons, and approved by a DM. An evil actually develops some convictions or a good is fooled by some chain of events or commits some impulsive but incredibly evil act.

I think anything alignment shift-wise in the game mechanics should be minimalist like it is. I think DMs should consider applying actions based - alignment shifts based on some sort of recognized messsage-board available chart.
whopping lie = 1 pt chaotic
steal/pilfer pick-pocket = 1 pt evil
help/heal/give minor item = 1 pt good
put babies in catapult for practice = 5 pts evil / 5 pts chaotic
lead assault on town of innocents = 10 pts evil/10 chaotic
follow orders to assalt town of innocents = 10 pts evil
destroy evil altar = 3 pts good
kill Sauron = gold star on forehead
kill Olorin = what else do you want you are already a DM

You get the point

[underdarklord]

Good idea GM. To add a little on it though, the DMs could have all the good and evil factions slowly turn there helpers into good or evil through their given quests. What I mean by this is, once a pc completes a quest for his/her side then their alignment should shift towards good or evil, maybe like 2 or 3 points.

It makes sense to me to add this in

thanks

[Fasin]

Hmm That would leave no room at all for Neutral characters at all then. That might be a shame. Neutrals should be rare occurences in ME but not non existant

There was a property of certain DM wands to alter character alignment based upon their actions but i believe that this isnt in at the moment. Might be nice to have it again at some point as a useful means of ajusting characters that do things contrary to their alignment or who want to make changes based on justifiable RP storylines.

[underdarklord]

I was told by a DM that basically I could not be of a neutral alignment because they basically do not exist in ME but I am also a cleric.

The amount of neutral characters should be few on the server, I believe, but I feel if the DMs did start changing peoples alignment when completing the said quests it would lessen the amount of neutral characters. I feel if there is any neutral characters then they definitly should pick a side and stick with it...like Argon said traitors are never truely trusted on either side.

Needless to say changing peoples alignment through the completion of quests would definitly be a nice add on to the game and server...in my personal opinion.

Thanks

[DM_Olórin]

Argon did indeed say that - but that dont quite hold up. Almost all of Sauron's forces were traitors or beings corrupted by him. Most served out of fear rather than loyalty. Granted it would often be fear of being on the losing side as Sauron seemed sure to rise to power. I refuse to believe that the nations of the East and South were kingdoms of pure evil.

If no one ever changes sides then the balances of power would never shift. I know that the policy is by and large pick a side but if you can justify a neutral character with a sound reason for their neutrality then so be it. After all most rogues and mercenaries would be fairly neutral in outlook. Not all thieves are evil.

Regarding being told you should pick a non neutral alignment for your cleric... Well you tell me in Tolkien, where would a neutral cleric draw power. You had the Valar in the West who were the embodyment of Law and Goodness and you have Sauron in the East. To be honest clerics shouldnt pick chaotic IMHO either. The dicipline required to practice Divine magic and keep a faith and all that. Even Sauron is not Chaotic, he is very much about control. A lot of players seem to pick Chaotic these days... its a pity.

There are no neutral deities in Middle Earth. Even Druids serve Yavanna the Giver of Fruits and she was a power of good alignment.

[dsan1]

just a question of interest: does a druid still NEED to be neutral according to standart-nwn rules or has that rule been changed by the dev team?

[DM_Olórin]

My post was based purely on my own opinions of Middle Earth and alignment. As far as I know there are no alignment restrictions over and above those already on the Druid class as written in NWN, only guidelines based on common sense and the much abused Spirit of the game world :) *kidding*

[GammaGm]

The only true "True Neutral" should be an animal or somone with an animal intelligence (no verbal language or use of tools of any kind) IMO. Acording to the Silmarillion, all the Valar are offspring/themes of the Creator who were given the capacity of free will. Melkor/Morgoth is a fallen created being based upon his rebellion and desire to replace the Creator God. If this story does not sound familiar to you, then you are not familiar with the Christian beliefs which Tolkien adopted after years of dialogue with C.S. Lewis (author of The Chronicles of Narnia).

Both C.S. Lewis and Tolkien derive their themes of good and evil, heroes, redemption, and the messiah figures (Gandalf's death and return, the kingship of Aaragorn reclaimed) from the Bible and Christian influenced literature/oral traditions.

A neutral in M.E. would be someone who had not made a decision to side one way or the other, or was not involved. I would argue that they would be lawful neutral (un-aligned undecided, non-combatants) or chaotic neutral (crazed looney toons, obsessed myopic hermits, certain mercenaries). Pretty rare in a fantasy literature world that parallels the "End Times".

[Luthianna]

*shuffles her feet and coughs a little about her true neutral druid from the middle of nowhere and her chaotic neutral elf who's constantly trying not to be evil....*

[DM_Olórin]

Aye i have a bit of a problem with True Neutral as an alignment, but LN and CN are more playable IMHO.

In particular CN wich works as a happy medium for truly selfish, non-evil mercenary types who arent goody goody. Handy for morally ambiguous rogues and hard hearted barbarians too.

Lawful Neutral has to be one of the most unpleasant alignments to play. As you would be expected to shop yer mates and not feel bad about it. Lawful Goods would see it as their duty but would be more moved to compassion and would speak up as a character witness.

[Argon Balros]

i think people on the good side can do bad things and vise versa look at denethor steward of gondor he had atributes that would be concidered evil. i think a neatral character would join whatever side he or she was born on to so a neatrl hardrim would most probably be evil where asa a neatral elf would most probably be good just because you are fighting on one side or another should'nt mean you are necesarily a good or bad person it could just be where cercumstance have lead that character.

[morez]

as a neutral haradrim for example i think i should eb able to enter harad areas or umbar without beeing attacked....
maybe some very special houses should be forbidden for non-evil chars...
just a suggestion..
*looks at mandos*

[Avalyn]

Neutrals...The Fëagils...they shall live again!

[wyrmwrath]

Quests could carry alignment shifts depending on the nature o fthe quest: clear the barrow downs likely good shift, kill the mirkwood elves...evil.

Only issue with things like picking locks, grave robbing, stepping into rooms that "dont belong to the player" is that it affects EVERYONE in the party..even if they are on the other side of the map! Is it possible to limit such to a small radius or the offending PC only?

[DM_Olórin]

The quests for the Dunedain do carry an alignment shift.. towards Lawful (cant remember how many points though). Its true that the alignment influencing quests seem to be in the lower level bracket. Be nice if most of them had some shift. :)

[Argon Balros]

well your characters alignment is how others see him(npc) so if you hang around with a theif then others will think less of you

[wyrmwrath]

I do not disagree, but in the instance of the graverobbing, i was with 3 orcs...who were not all that bright(the toons not the players) and by the time i had convinced them to stop i had lost 40 alignment points. Lost because i was arguing against what they were doing.

the other options would have been to leave and try to make my way out of the dungeon alone or try to kill 3 orc warriors as a mage....see the dilema...?

im not griping, just pointing out that some of the alignments shifting affects might need to be re examined...when the developement team whittles thier monsterous task down to a point where they can see over the stack of to do notes...thats all.

[stormbringerii]

hmm on the topic of alignment and alignment shifts, I'd have to say that some alignments are just downright abused. C/N is a good example of this, "I'm crazy I'll do whatever I want, my alignament says I can" is usually the most often encountered abuse. As the actions in question are usually for the most xp or gold. True Neutral shouldn't really exist for a player alignment. You'd be a wreck. How would you participate in anything? One day do evil, then the next day do good? No you'd likely sit this one out, and seeing as its a war between good and evil that might take awhile. My character Dregoth is Lawful Neutral. I'm all about discipline and sticking to my word (lawful), but I'm obssessed with the Rings of Power to the point where I might actually consider killing some one innocent to get one, so that I could use it for research to help the free win the war. (neutral, the ends justify the means). For the most part I'm a good guy and I help out when I can, but its that dark seed inside me the keeps me from being totally good. Where the hell was i going with all this? Oh yeah the point is that neutrals should really be fairly rare breeds on this server as it is primarily a good vs evil conflict. Well now i'm just rambling and as such I think I shall finish my post while i at least sound reasonably intelligent. You've been a great audience, I'm here every thursday! Goodnight.

[Argon Balros]

hum your description of lawful neutral sounds a bit like chaotic good to me (willing to break a few eggs to make an omlete for the greater good)

[stormbringerii]

Hmmm now that you mention it it does seem that way doesn't it.

[GammaGm]

The issue of alignment is that there will be variations. No mathmatical construct (consider the idea that all our chars are mathmatical representations of our imagining) can capture reality.

The numbers and ideas are just approximations.

[morez]

i would praise a quest that's for good and evil

i mean all at the right sides:

for example:

the evil has to kill anyone

the good has to protect this anyone

so there would be more good evil encounters and PvP

if you dont want to fight the opponent? No Problem you dont have to but your mission failed!

i guess this only would be possible in a DM running quest but if also in a ususal NPC quest.. that would be really great!!!

[Baltar]

Yes I've noticed that my alignment has changed slightly by grouping and doing certain quests and although still evil I am now kill on sight with certain human types near Isengard and ones in the icy mountains whereas I was friendly before.

Is there still a place where you can correct/reset your alignment ?, A nice idea would be by praying at a statue or Sauron or Morgoth.

I noticed that <cough> opening tombs counts a graverobbing, whether or not you take anything, and earns you a chaotic point and giving money to a beggar give you a good point shift.

Are there any methods for gaining evil points? ;)

Here here Morez, I'd like to see the odd quest which has a nice faction hit.

Also love the idea that a disguise maybe a craftable limited period item could give you the opposite faction for say 15 mins enough time to nip into a town and use the services of a shop etc.

[Argon Balros]

if you intimidate people it gives you an evil hit

[thromnombulax]

Yeah, robbing beggars or barmen and such *cough*

[Cullkett]

and killing peasants :)