Fear and loathing with disguises

[thromnombulax]

Hey all; great server, great roleplay from most i've met and without doubt great fun.
However, i just wondered if its at all possible to post some "official" guidelines regarding use of disguises (greasepaint and wigs, leather patches to "filter" the voice, and leather strings to *cough* raise the tones of a mans voice :O ) , as just recently one of my characters has stumbled upon groups of the Free; wearing new armour, new colours, new weapons (with a voice filter and string *squeaks* where necessary), with a bluff skill and pretending to be various others than who he really is, complete with plausible stories to back up his allegations (a ranger of ithilien searching for the captain who was murdered near rivendell etc) yet some of the free say immediately "--insert characters name here--, what are you doing here..." or such.
Most players enter into the spirit of things and seem happy to sit and chat along (you know who you are...thanks for the fun), some seem confused, and some are openly hostile for no apparant in-game reason. (even to a supposedly good character attacking the disguised character in the back as he walked away from an otherwise friendly reception...you know who you are too you backstabbing cur ;) )
I know it may be more work for yous DM - types but is there some way of advising players to play whats being said and what they see on screen, and not what they see when they press TAB.
This sounds like a whine but wasnt originally intended to be interpreted in that way, heh.
I know a few others who use disguises feel the same way and hence have been driven before a flaming whip and threats of being fed piecemeal to a hungry Olog to make this post.
Anybody else have any thoughts? (cue Argon. Argon? cue Argon)
:E

[Damazig]

One of my obvious aproaches to the lack of evil characters to hunt with at my lvl, was to try and infiltrate the good guys partys in disguise... but to no use, somehow we are always identified... either cause we are wearing black... (nonsence to me, since aragorn used black, saruman used white), or the good guys now ask to see ones face all the time, or if we are not wearing black, its because we stink, or they recognise the voice or whatever...

No use trying to roleplay disguises like this, since many just go and shout, hey its that necron fella for sure under those cloths.

[thromnombulax]

yeah and a lot of the frees wear hoods too...perhaps some are just naturally suspicious of everybody they meet on the trail eh..makes you wonder how they manage to get together as a group in the first place...."are you the same *insert name here* as i travelled with yesterday?"...looks like our plan to spread suspicion and fear and distrust amongst the Free has worked too well eh :)

[thromnombulax]

err as a post script, i have no quarrel with Argon ; he played the disguise thing well and welcomed me into the group, along with that pi-eating dwarf (heh), but we had a brief friendly chat and he may come up with some ideas, hence the reference to his character.
Peace

[DM_Olórin]

Fair dos.... some folk change their look dependant on the situation. When in town some characters dress for town, keeping the armour for when they set out on a quest. So seeing an evil character in something other than the so often (unfortunately) obligatory black, does not necessarily automatically SCREAM, complete stranger, I wonder who this bloke in leather armour is...

Best idea is to get the jump on mistakes by having a line ready in the Talk channel... "Greetings fellow citizens.... I am ...[insert assumed name here]... of Tharbad, and I am a humble farmer... oh yes... OOO ARRR...". And dont forget the winning smile :)

Personally as a DM, ive sent tells to good players in the past to remind them that someone was in disguise so could they stop yelling their name :P. But by the same token, when playing, ive entered into dialogue with a familiar enemy, only to be met with a tell. "Hey this is disguise"... Well to that I replied in tells... "of course you are, and if i change my clothes no one will know its me either :)"... but once i knew I played stooge.

In the current climate of espionage and subterfuge, it is best to never take things on face value... If someone looks like they are meant to be in disguise... play along with it... Itll be more fun that way...

[Guyror]

I would just like to point out that Gloisin has always had a thing about people in Black, as alot of his fellows will agree. it is nothing personal just a little quirk. (one of many) And yes he is very suspicious of everyone, and sometimes quiet rude to people being unafraid of speaking his mind or rather speaking without thinking much first. But hey that is what he is like.

[Argon Balros]

argon likes to see sombodys face when speaking to some one if i know there good or bad.

tyrion explained to me that good characters have been delvled for travling with evil characters. so that is why he did not play along

so i think some guide lines in the rules are definetly neccesary.

also some sought of disguise kit whitch also changes the big floaty name might be a good idea

[Lorien]

One thing I would say to people here is before you atart screaming that people are fake etc. have a look at the situation that is going on.

If they're in conversation with an NPC who is responding differently to normal - eg under DM control, don't be so quick to denounce them. There's probably a very good reason for it all, and suddenly screaming their a fake as soon as you see them is not very good RP.

I'm thinking of the example of the 'Gondorian' guard yesterday - unless you are on first name terms with all the 1000's of Gondorian soldiers you have no way of knowing is someone is a fake.

I was quite disappointed when one character said about this guards 'don't believe it, his accusers are Khaev's friends' the 'accusers' were also in disguise, and looked quite different to their normal appearance. To be fair to the person who said this they did then do a (legitimate) OOC chat - 'whoops my bad, sorry ingnore me, didn't see they were disguised' - so well done for that.

One thing I found truly amazing was when someone said - 'Oh they must be fake, because the Gondorian people never leave Minas Tirth'. - HELLO? Never leave Minas Tirith? - um Boromir did, the fact that they are on good terms with the Rohirrim - of course they leave Minas Tirith.

I do think its one thing to try and discredit those who are accusing you or your party, but another to jump into somthing that was obviously DM monitored and starting accusing people of things before you even know whats going on.

Please look at the situation and think before you act just because someone is in disguise.

And to be fair to Gloisin he does mistrust anyone in black - he did the same sort of thing when he first met both Shan and Dregoth, as Guyror says its just one of his character traits.

[DM_Olórin]

By the way, the player bodies are very light... The fact that they dont weigh enough does not mean that they are illusions :P please...

[thromnombulax]

Thanks for the input so far chaps.....As a northerner, i can kinda empathise with that pie eatin dwarf chap
*dreams happily of Lard pies*

[GammaGm]

Ok, so one of the perks of being evil is that you can wander a neutral town, as long as you look different than you normally do. I'm glad my char has taken a bunch of skills in spot, which will permit her to spot rubber noses, mustachios and the like.

DMs need to insist that evils who are going to tell lies have skills developed in their char that permits telling of lies convincingly. Lets also face it, some races are going to be really hard to pass off as good/evil. No one got to be the Mayor of a town by being stupid, trusting, or non-beaurocratic.

When do good chars get to infiltrate evil towns, cause havok and generally get ignored because we happen to wear black. Evils do not attack persons on sight either, because they might be an important ally, messenger, etc.

No character could realistically be a regular in either sides' military structure. Therefore, they would not know passwords, signs or aything else to even enter secure areas for their own side, let alone that of an enemy.

The Gondorians would not send an unknown lower ranking soldier to Tharbad for help. (Never mind that in the books Tharbad was de-populated long prior to the Big War.) They would send a diplomat, well recognized with an entourage, official seals, etc. Neither would un-attached mercenary types bother themselves with the affairs of the mayors office.

Some times the contrived plots brings on contrived responses, well at least from me it does.

[Lorien]

Sorry - but no-one said he was low-ranking. I was very dissappointed by the reaction of good characetrs. You can excuse it anyway you want but the endgame is the 'evils' Rp'd it the goods didn't.

Why shouldn't evils wonder a neutral town - thats also one of the perks of being good - a neutral town is aligned to neither side - hence the name neutral.

Basically some of the 'good' players where metagaming -using the names above people to colour their actions. If this happens again steps will be taken. Its damn obvious when people are doing their best to be disguised, if you attempt to side step this you are ruinung other peoples RP.

This is my final word on it, and in any of my events (which you seem to be trying to destroy cos you don't like disguises) I will take steps agianst anyone I see as metagaming. You have been warned.

[thromnombulax]

We've got "bluff" skills GammaGM; the decription on that skill says, (paraphrased) "to make the implausible seem believable" .
Without getting too deep, I take this to include also making what is apparant to the observer believable; one of the reasons we have RL courts is to seek an objective "truth" from (usually) a plethora of subjective (sense-derived) witness statements.
Most of us believe what we see/hear or are told whether we care to admit it or not, so "bluffs" that fit the "facts" seem more believable (ref hidden-camera type TV shows) and so are questioned less in the heat of the moment.
Admittedly, upon introspection, an encounter with shysters may be thought through and questioned, but your character is going off killing Dragons, discovering enchanted treasures and such like; how much thought is it going to give to an encounter in a town that lasted a few minutes?
The stealth skill may be used to great effect to infiltrate areas and discover passwords or calls (Northern Range Falcon springs to mind lol ;-) )
With reference to the (excellent and evolving) gameworld, the evil stealth missions have been a blast. But its a bit much to be expected to have to type *thanks Melkor has a bluff skill* as an emote every time we go to a fancy-dress party in Tharbad and meet some "goodies". As Lorien and olorin say, it would be more fun if everyone just joined in eh GammaGM mate? We CAN play nice with each other *embarrased cough* ...ask the "goods" that have and im sure they'll concur.
We have the skills. We have the inclination. Some of us have a pox.
:D

[DM_Olórin]

As far as im concerned there was some great RP going on. Plenty of imagination and effort went in to it. Correct Tharbad was pretty much abandoned at the time of the War of the Ring, but its a fine location for a neutral town that we can do things with. The conceit here is that we have given it a bit of a population and made it our own. I dont have a problem with that. Tharbad has formed a highly effective hub for many quests, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, its neutrality allows us to have good and evil characters interact.

Good characters might not get to infiltrate an evil town mate cos the guards will kill them if they see em. Just as the evils werent infiltrating a good town. They were "pretending" (thats a RP term) to infiltrate a neutral town that they could walk into unchallenged dressed however they chose at any time. Well done them I say.

Good people are in the majority in the world and have no reason to hide their normality. Evils who might in the privacy of thier torture chambers flaunt lots of bare skin and spikey black stuff tend to look BLOODY DAFT in a typical urban setting, when they are all glammed up and looking "evil" (I realise some of the evil characters are nicely understated and i am damn greatful to ye for that). The disguises help them fit in (convincingly or otherwise) and offer chances for RP.

Aye maybe you could see through the disguise or maybe not. Hell why not have automatic dislike and kill on sight if you spot them. I seldom left things to chance in the PnP days when i ran a narrative storyline. Dice make lousy storytellers. Personally i dont care if someone has true seeing on 24/7, and the disguise is a bit obvious, if you think you should play along for the sake of others enjoyment, and the time and thought involved in running a plot-driven event, then please play along. Thats not asking much is it?

There glad thats all sorted :)

*offers Gamma a pair of blinkers and Thromnombulax a course of Anti-biotics and a scalpel*

[Argon Balros]

lorien i love the idea of using disguises i think it ads a lot to rp

but i feel what argon did was right here are the reasons
he knows several gondorian knights and they would never demand praise then kill those that did not praise them and i mean never also it is very rare that a knight would leave minas tirith unless there was a good reason i.e escorting a pretty maiden is not a good reason.

i am sure i would have asked all the same questions even with out the text writen above heads.

i'm sorry if it damaged any ones experiance but i was just roleplaying as i thought argon would to the situation.

[Argon Balros]

the most i can say is i might have not noticed wht was going on and ran past.
thats because i always look twice when i see another players as i would'nt like to ignore anyone.

but unless lorien is still not happy let us move on an discuus good ideas for disguises in future.

[Prophet7]

I'm really sorry about my poor RP today. My only excuse is that I was getting tired of being screwd over every time something like that happens, i.e. a bunch of fake guards killing a commoner and blaming it on Tyrion and not my companions. From the start I didn't feel like being the target again, and I blew it for everyone. My apologies.

[Lorien]

I'm not unhappy with anyone specifically, and I do get where you are coming from, also I'm not saying all the Rp was wonderful that night, but do please take time to have a look at the situation before charging in with accusations. Also what did make it a little more disappointing was we had ideas stemming from what was happening for a counter-event for the 'good' aligned characters at a later date - however all the accusations flying around kind of spoiled this.

If in doubt it only takes a second to send a DM tell asking - should I get involved in this at the moment? I don't think any of us would complain about such a tell, and it could avoid such mix ups happening again. Its somthing I thought I'd mention though because I intend to keep doing story/RP driven events which means tht characters will be sent into neutral towns to do things, and it would be a pity if the other faction got on their backs every time.

[Argon Balros]

ok now that out of the way lets look at ways of improving it in future.

we need:
a set of guide lines in the log because even the experianced roleplayers can get caught out by this kind of thing.

i also think a range of diguise kits would make the experiance for far more engrossing.

these could have the practical real world effect of changing the voice set and model to those used by npcs I.E commoner, guard esgaroth and tharbad, knight of gondor, member of the rohirim.
you could have a diferent disguise kit for each of these.

as much as i enjoy roleplaying even when i know the truth i would find it far more engrossing if I and my character where unaware.

i know this would involve some work but i think it would be well worth it.

[wyrmwrath]

As the player that pointed out the ruse then recanted in OOC speak, I would lke to point out that before I opened my yap in error I did look at Khaevs name...then his outfit...and saw he was plate...just like he usually is...only difference was he had a helm onand usualy doesnt in town.

It wasnt till i noticed Necron out of his normal clothes...AND they all said a few things as the beings they were pretending to be, that I realised what was going on. Hence the recanted statement.

However, trying to pass one self off as a Knight of Ghondor...of any rank...that left the white city, to guide a maiden...to another city...any city...and then demand the residents bow and if they dont...kill them...is just not going to fly with antone that has really seen (in game ) the almost robotic discipline of the warriors of the white city. I am NOT saying Khaev RPed it poorly. Not at all, but trying to pass that off would be like Marry and Pippin standing one on another...in a white rope and fake beard ...waving sparklers around claiming to be Gandalf to Aragorn. Not gonna happen...

I do like the disguise thing, there should be some...guidlines for when it is allowed and when its not, and yes...if there was a way to temp change the PCs name, tyhat would help greatly.


I should never post tired and epect it to be legable...

[DM_Olórin]

There might be some confusion here. The "maiden" was escorted by two Ithillien Rangers. One of the Rangers was genuine and travelling from Minas Tirith to Imladris via Edoras, Tharbad and Bree. As you all discovered he was joined by others as he passed through the Gap of Rohan. The Mayor told Vinduil and those present that the Ranger was being galant in aiding the lady in red because of her "injury".

A Gondorian Knight could be anywhere in the civilized lands on any sort of mission or indeed leave. Look at Jade, Captain of the Knights of Gondor and travelling all over the world doing good deeds. Khaev was I think deliberately overplaying the arrogant Gondorian among vulgar hick commoners really well in my opinion. It was how an evil might portray an arrogant "goodly" knight who in a fit of pride looses his cool. Yes it was over the top. How else would he get the towns attention and cause outrage to cause a rift in relations beween the White City and Tharbad. He wasnt told to dress as a knight of gondor, the evils brief was to sowe discord among the free in the city of Tharbad and spill a little innocent blood. How else could he have gone about it? They came up with their own plan... and we made it happen.

OK so the event run for the evils blundered into some of the free. You werent expecting it, nor were we. But I dont see as we need any guidelines for this sort of situation other than enjoy the moment and play along in the spirit of the game. All you need is your RP skills, some imagination and a temporary suspension of disbelief. Clearly the "disguised" evils were interacting with DM run NPCs. That should tell you something at least.

If the general concensus is that running these sorts of subterfuge and deception type events should stop because its going to require MORE RP guidelines than we already have, then we will have to think about finding other things to run. Bloody shame in my opinion, they are creating plotlines which by the way have already benefitted good characters in investigation missions. If you already know whodunnit why bother reading the next chapter. We cant please everyone and we only work with what we have to hand.

[GammaGm]

How bout this? If evils or goods want to RP out some encounter, create a party and play out the interactions within the confines of the group. I haven't seen any real PVp encounters recently anyway, most evils and goods being on good RL terms.

Just form a party, communicate in tells what you want to have happen and let it go.

[ghost81]

Thats all very well but doesn't cover what happened that day - the evils were doing what they were supposed to be doing and encountered a group of goods - now our rules do say not to ignore others, so some interaction should go on, but there isn't time everytime you want to RP an encounter with someone of an opposing faction to form up into a party. Its better to react on what you see, but take the time to look at whats going on and how/what people are RPing - it doesn't take long to check if somone looks different to how they normally appear.

[wyrmwrath]

I think my point was missed....

>The "maiden I reffered to stated the knight was escorting her from Ghondor....i didnt hear it second or third hand. JThats what i based MY PCs actions on after i covered this players blunder in the situation.

>Jade is the exception , not the rule. Just like Boromir was. The structure of a military, like the white city has in game and is perported to have in the books, doesnt allow for one soldier, unless they are Jade or boromir who be unmistakable if seen and would not have acted like that, to escort non dignataries in the manner described.

>I NEVER said it was a bad plot. In fact I applaud it. It is one of the freshest ideas i have seen. I NEVER said allowing disguises is bad, again I feel the opposite. However the free form method under current use is to subjective for the environment its used in. Since there are DM tools that can make a PC make a skill roll, and the DMs can se the skill values on any PC; make a bluff or disguise check for the "spy", add(meltaly and situation modifiers the DM feels correct, and compare to the spot skills or whatever the DM or any new guidelines reccomend and TELL the percieving PC wether they pierce the disguise or not. Hell use one skill roll when the disguise is put on for the entire plot unless the spy makes adjustments. This way the skills that WOULD be a pain in tha rump to code, are now usefell and valuable...try passing a disguise by a rogue with a high spot...aint happnen.

>You are right, the knights of Ghondor could be anywhere, but unless they have the freedom of a high ranking officer, a rarety in a medieval(sp) political/military structure, they would not have the latitude to wander alone watching over one person. There would be at least a pair if noy half a dozen, and the escorted being would have to be somone of importance, political, social, or personal, to one of that miliraries commanders. To a Pc that comes from a similar military kingdom(Rohan) the cover story was weak ONCE that "maiden" made that statement.

> I NEVER said Khaev was TOLD to dress like a knight, i was simply saying that the fact taht he was attempting to dress like a knight was what caused me to make my error. I am blaming NO ONE but myself, i was only trying to explain not blame.

I never intended the other post to seem hostile, disrespectful, or accusatory. I was just explaining the evets from my perspective. I thoght it was an awsome plot. Hell i even t used the only invis potion i had ooted to that point to follow the "knight" to see if he gave anything away. Seems he has a friend wit ha transporter pad and a starship, cause he vanished. blasted mages! :):smurf: :camper:

[Luthianna]

*holds up a hand and cringes*

The knight being an escort was my doing - first thing I could think of when people started accusing him of not being from Gondor... the simplest thing I could say to try and convince people was that's where I'd found him.. It wasn't a good idea, and I should've thought of better, but it was all I could think of right there on the moment..

Definitely not brilliant, I know.. Hence trying to scarper as soon as I could :)

[DM_Olórin]

I think the whole incident is getting over analysed. It was meant to be a bit fishy really. You dont need to explain youselves, any of you.

See how the citizens of Tharbad would view the events. They dont have any military experience (to speak of) even the watchmen are basically glorified civillians in uniform. The purpose was to create discord and place doubts in the minds of the populace. Obviously to you it was Khaev in disguise but your character cant be certain who it was only that something is right off about the incident. Once the deed was done and the rumors started, their job was over. Sure some people would guess it was a ruse but by then the common folk would be in uproar and the damage would be done.

Think of it as an act of terrorism, which is basically what it was meant to be. :)

Im just amazed we have to justify it on the forums, *grins insanely* :P Your co-operation and support are greatfully appreciated.

[thromnombulax]

Yeah i agree Olorin, there's no need for anyone to feel guilty over their actions. My original post was intended to promote debate, not criticise, and if any have interpreted it this way then i apologise for my failure to correctly convey these intentions.
To those who posted apologies (again as Olorin said) and/or sent tells in game, for what its worth and even though unnecessary, you have risen in my estimation, as i believe it takes a lot of spunk and a mature attitude to admit that one may have been in error.
Wyrmwrath; i have been reading the skill descriptions and again i would like to take this opportunity to emphasis that, on my interpretation;

(a) Bluff ; seems designed to make the UNbelievable believable. For an "ordinary" ruse no skill seems to be required.
For example, to convince you that i have been robbed on the street, i have only to run around a bit, shouting " stop ... thief!!!!!(pointing to some one out for a jog)" ; you will see me, think i've been robbed, and either pass by assuming its someone elses problem, or rush to assist, cursing your overly good nature and hoping the red head you were en route to meet will wait for you.
However, to convince you that it was a giant mutant badger that stole my motorcycle is going to take some bluff skills...it sounds a little bit fishy, right?

(b) Spot; i can find no reference either overt or implied in this skills' description to suggest it may counter a bluff. It seems designed to spot other, more "stealthy" actions *cough*

(c) with regard to DM making skill rolls..that would seem a lot of work for them in the type of encounter in Tharbad when there were four evils and a whoop of goods, especially considering it was by accident rather than design the two parties met, and at that time there was no "harm" intended the good party; merely the NPC population.

Basically, again as i have stated elsewhere, the fun factor would be phenomenal if we just played along with the disguised character, dont you think.

*goes to Fridge and checks on state of metal cylinder of maggots* :D

[Argon Balros]

i think the whole subterfuge idea is one of the best anyones had in ages, as with all new ideas theres been a little teething trouble but all thats been discussed to death as i said in my previous post lets concentrait on the future.

i'm sorry orlorn if this is starting to sound to much like hard work i for one am just really ecited about the possabilites this brings up.

just think if characters could apear to be npcs the characters they interact with would think it was a dm event and really play along, i for one always get more into somthing if i think its a dm event.
if i'm just with other player i just tend to sit around the fire endlessly chatting whitch is great don't get me wrong but its not very often i can be bothered to both type and move my character around on a mission but i think everyone puts the extra effort in if they think its part of a dm event.

[Argon Balros]

and please i think were done with examaning the past

[morez]

there should be also a way for my non-evil haradrim to enter harad or umbar without beeing killed in sight!

maybe he (yûshmar) shouldnt speak to quest-NPCs because they could know him and his history and therefor attack or arrest him.

i know this would be a great problem to implementate but maybe in some way possible

think about that

[Argon Balros]

well there was talk of speacial abilities for certain races so it is possible for in game distictions based on race name

[Lorien]

I think you'll find that all NPC reactions are based on faction rather than anything else - unfortunately this is how the game works. Everything is placed into a faction and he designer can adjust the faction settings as to how they react to other factions. As far as I know for player characters your factions are (unfortunately) based upon your alignment, and it would take a lot of work to be able to make this different.

[Ptolomy]

I'd like to say thanks to the player of Khazaldor (thromnombulax?) for showing me how well disguises can be played and the fun that can be had with them. You, amongst others I should add, have inspired me, and at least one other player I know of, to develop disguises for some of our own characters. Fight fire with fire etc! :)

[Argon Balros]

i always found fighting fire with water worked well

[thromnombulax]

Cheers Ptolomy, (*ignores Argons comment* ;p ) i've had fun with them/ am having fun with them, but i must bow to Wulfus Villainous, who inspired me and others when he instigated the "Tyrion Incident".
Yes, its all his fault i'm afraid :)

[Baltar]

Touched upon earlier I know but it would be a nice roleplay element (as a mask showing a generic face would be too difficult?) to have a purchasable or even craftable no drop hood that could, once donned, hide the face and give the name as anon?

[DM_Kev]

On my list for improvements over the comming weeks. :)

[thromnombulax]

Thought id bump this up .

Just to remind peeps not to react to the floaty above the toons heads .. the wyrm appearing in Dunland tonight (and peoples rections to it) and a few queries on IRC channel seem to make it "current" once more :)

[Kyle Morgan]

*throws a coin in as a newcomer*:

What happens when you use the emote script typing *bluff*? Is the bluff roll visible to the players around? If not there is a cep-tool called dice-bag which allowes to do skill-rolls and show to the people around. This way a disguiser can use his/her skills and let the players decide themselves by comparing the output with their wisdom or will saving or even do their own roll if unsure. No dm needed.

[ghost81]

We did have skill rolls showing to players originally, but this was quickly changed - I believe they're now only visible to the person making the roll, and to any DM's online.

[DM_Aule]

That is correct. Originally, the skill rolls that would be relevant to other players (largely Persuade, Bluff, Intimidate) were visible in the talk channel. However, certain players abused that and tried to force their RP on others, getting pushy when others didn't react to their rolls as they felt should have happened.

Because of this, all rolls are private (and DM-visible) now. They're meant more as a DM aid -- I used plenty of skill/stat checks in the event I ran yesterday. It is our experience that player-to-player interaction is galled by skill rolls with no DMs present.

[thromnombulax]

Which was a shame :( Curses on those that abused the system!

Still, it doesnt stop us sending a friendly tell "my char has x bluff" skill or whatever, or even using the emote wand to roll a d20 (though this does slow proceedings down a tad).

Some characters have *always* given a "false" name, (Severin/Selene and Kallista/Toriel spring to mind); so, of course, these shouldn't need a bluff roll, since everyone they have met knows them by their "assumed" name only.

I think most of us just play along with the "disguises" thing now, unless its obviously absurd (ie a well-known character with *no* bluff skill attempting a disguise; IMO, if you want to pick a pocket, you need the skill, so if you want to disguise, the same applies, although if its harmless fun i may be inclined to play along regardless).

The reason i bumped the thread was due to reactions to a player shape shifted into a dragon; to all intents and purposes it *is* a dragon to those that see it. The shifted player had encountered many many dragons (and had even at one point been tasked with persuading one to join with Saurons forces), those who encountered the player-shifted wyrm had seen one between them (and a young one at that), which i doubt they tried to talk to; they prolly just saw it was hostile and attacked, so i felt there was no valid reason for some of the characters "disbelieving" that it *was* a dragon, except for the floaty name above the beast.

Common sense says if it looks like a dragon, smells like a dragon it *is* a dragon. :)

[ghost81]

Indeed, if it looks like a dragon and you didn't see it change I'd say act like its a dragon. Although to my mind, if you are 'good' aligned, this would mean either running away from it or doing their damndest to kill it. This is because in Tolkien the dragons were all evil, created by Morgoth to do evil.

[DM_Aule]

I agree with "if it looks like a dragon, it is a dragon" -- however, having had the privilege of watching that encounter from a DM's perspective, I don't think anything went particularly wrong with the players' reactions. OK, so they didn't attack straight away or run away. But that's fine -- if they did, there'd be no satisfaction from the discussion on either side. One of them attacked the dragon -- fair enough, quite plausible, and a suitable demonstration of the dragon's might. Eventually the good party fled -- not running panically, but again, if they had run there wouldn't have been the possibility of having such a satisfying players/dragon interaction.

I know one dwarf was trying to compare this dragon to other dragons in his experience -- that's also all very well, since dwarves are among those who would know dragons best, what with Smaug and the Whithered Heath, and I can certainly see why it would confuse a dwarf to see a dragon talking rather than breathing flame.

Overall, I think the situation was handled very well by all present.

[timppako]

Aye and those dwarves can be stubborn! When they make up their mind about something it's hard to change. ;)

But I agree with you about the disguises, but I'd also like to point out that sometimes the surroundings and happenings are essential to believing disguises. Like a wyrm in Dunland? What there would be in Dunland that would sparkle a wyrms interest? That troubles a certain dwarf, but he is reliefed that Tharkûn happened to show up and is certain that he will sort that matter. :)

I'd say that more interaction from players (like telling that they have a good bluff skill etc) and/or from DM's telling that a character has no good reason to suspect why something isn't real. Just a quick tell that this seems very real I think is enough for most players to assure them how that shoud be played.

Also keeping in mind your own characters attributes and skills is quite hard. So sometimes more guidance would be good. I know it would be a moodkiller if in some situation the players and DM's would have to start discussing what and why the characters think this is real or not etc. But also players shoud keep in mind that the DM's have the last word.

But anyway, the encounter was a thrilling one! Was it a wyrm or not, the dwarf doesn't know, but whatever it was it was a mighty foe indeed!

(hope I'm making sense, slap me if I don't)

[thromnombulax]

I enjoyed the encounter immensely ; after sending a tell to the "evil" characters that we were popping into Dunland on Striders quest, they sent back that they would prepare a little surprise for us (some non-damaging snares were laid, and the "Dwarf Trap" of the trail of ale and gold :) ).

Even though we were thwarted in our attempt to complete the quest, we *all* had a bit of fun, but i just was a bit concerned about the reaction to the wyrm and thought i'd try to forestall any "that man sounds like the dragon!!!" stuff that may arise in future.

Reading the above few posts, i can see that any worry was unfounded ... see you all in game *root-toot* :)

[WalterEgo]

Disguises hey, Great Thread PPL! and covert ops.
My first meeting with someone in disguise was quite some many months ago now..maybe 6-8months ago. an evil beat me up(mana) and a few rangers.. it was great fun. eventually though his toying with us tired him & we sort of got an upper hand as he ran out of spells.some time later we came across him in Tharbad ( i might add he played very well and we had great fun being slashed, stalked and maimed by him ) I aproached himn agressivly ( he was wearing different clothes) Mana demanding this and that etc.. he then told me in 'tell' that he was in disguise.. well that is ok he had changed his clothes i suppose and it made for good role play so I had to backpeddle , quickly appologise for the misunderstanding his silhouette and shadow against the wall made him look just like this felon whom assaulted us on the road. So we went along with it, it was fun.

However. There needs to be acheckmade not everybody should be able to just don a disguise and get away with it. Though Bluff skill may be vital in pulling off the act inside the disguise, i do not believe it to be related to hiding oneself in make up & hair pieces etc. These are specific skills.

Nor can a disguise of quality just be wacked on in seconds flat... like superman changing in a phone booth. Unless it was a disguise cast by an illusionist (a class NWN does not support.. though it does support the shifter).

Perhaps disguise ability should first off all belong to only 'certain classes' with specific skills or want of skill in that area. Namely Bards (actors and makeup artists), Rogues, Assasins. and that should be all. (i really belive quite strongly that these are the only ones capable of doing disguise) or perhaps a Bard could prepare another player over some hours in a disguise.. using all his theatrical trix of the trade and that cha could then parade in disguise regardless of class.

Disguise in some casses is really not as dificult as one might think... metal armour is incredibly bulky and battle helms cover most usually if not all the face... so if an 'evil' is known by sight in battle' wearinfhis armour and sheild with blackguard helmet... no one wouyld recognise him off the battlefield except by his voice.. his entire posture would be different.. and the only thing the goodys would have seen is the slits of his eyes.. or "that unusual limp is just like the limp of the Infamous Black Ranger of death" etc.. in other words a person must be first known to be recognised.

Also thanks to our lovely range of helmets, it should be decided (this is just an idea) that the helmets that look like facxes are disguises, maybe the one with i think its a beard... could be the 'generic disguise good helmet. and for evil maybe the 'Ogres head' or 'trolls' or orcs head' as a disguise. so that when we see someone in Isengard wearing the 'trolls head' helmet we know straight away that this person is a goody... dressed up as a baddie.
Regardless of this a check should be made to see if the disguise is successful.

Other than this if people want to infiltrate the military for example of an enemy.. i think it should be possible.. in particular a High level Assasin should in Theory after spending significant time gathering Inteligence, be able to in disguise infiltrate the ranks of the millitary and carry out an assasination... though it would be perilous indeed.
Alternatively why cant evil be good aligned eg they start of good but are secretly evil winning trust having access to good resources secrets etc... and then finnaly carrying out Their WOMRPD (weapon of mass roleplay destruction) or consistently feeding information /inteligence to that Assasin who one day walks straight in through the gate using the secret signs and words as if he was one of the cerowd and unless captured and tortured.. or bargained with the informant 'sleeperspy' is never discovered'.

I mean what is an evil char... are you assuming that in the entire city of Minas tirith that there arnt evil people shop theives, thugs, con artists?.. sure i am certain the knights keep an eye on it well... but until someone is caught they are not evil.

I have an evil Mercenary' hes not evil in the sense that he is 'down with' the boys from Isengard... he hasnt met them yet..and is oblivious to their cause and anything else that does not involve him making a buck so to speak.. but he is evil in the sense that he is selfish will steal will cheat... will do almost anything for a gold piece... but why shouldnt he be allowed into the city of Minas Tirith.. he has done nothing wrong (that hes been caught for)and is just another greedy peasant (Mercenary now or Sword for Hire as he likes to say) anyway sry i am way off the topic of disguise. . so my opinion is (they are very opinionated arnt they threads.. they are quite liberating for ones self really )

disguise
-should be class limited or brads can Prep. anyone.
- should take a long time frame to prepare.
- Should always include a success roll
-should have designated helmet styles to indicate to players a disguise is being worn.
-We as players need to reases what we really do recognise about the enemy, one cannot recognise what one has never seen (like in the example above of the black ranger of death.)


*In no way do i wish to imply that the player i met that was in disguise was in anyway poor. It was great.. i think that he was just unsure as to the proper protocol to use in presenting himself in disguise as he must have been amoung the first. He was very good whoever you were and i had lots of fun, thankyou.

Thank sfor your time in reading and your contributions ppl.

[ghost81]

I don't feel disguises should be limited to certain classes at all - although some classes do have an advantage. It should be more about the skills people possess - obviously this will give an advantage to a class who have bluff and persuade as class skills rather than cross class skills, because they will have higher skills in this level.

I also don't feel it should always necessarily need a skill roll - at least not to don a disguise.

Somthing to think about when seeing a disguised character is:

1) In what conditions did I see them before - if it was only in the hurly burly of a fight and you weren't fighting them directly face to face yourself you're less likely to have a good image of them engrained on your mind. If it was dark and or raining unless you had an extended, close quater face to face conversation with them you'll unlikely to pick up much more than an idea of their build. If you saw them passing at a distance, you'd not really know much about them at all.
2) In what conditions are you seeing them now - if its from a distance at most they're only going to be vaguely familiar in build, if its dark/raining you're going to have to get a lot closer for good visual recognition - this can stand true even if they're not wearing disguises.
3) What clothes are they wearing now - if you see someone in the guards uniform of Tharbad in Tharbad you should pretty much take it at face value, unless you have a specific reason not to. Not many characters, if any, spend time getting to know all the guards of Tharbad so 'he didn't look like one of the normal guards' as an argument doesn't hold much water for me. An Ithlien ranger in Tharbad though, would cause a bit more of a stir - friends of the free may want to find out what has brought them so far from Minas Tirith/Ithlien and so go to speak to them. (So there's a handy hint for those donning disguises - match them to the area you're in - Throm is very good at this from what I recall).

To my mind lots of the issues with disguises can be worked around without ever having to use a dice roll - these only become more important when some has a face to face encounter with a disguised person they've met before. Then it should be a mixture of RP, and if necessary skill rolls. Although as Aule says above these rolls in no way replace RP, so shouldn't always be necessary and used as a matter of course.

As an aside I would say common sense is once more the most important thing to do with disguises - if I dressed Lolinus up as a Tharbad guard - then yes I'd expect people to come and investigate - however if I dressed a human up as one and just patrolled Tharbad or stood on a street corner I would expect most people to pass me by, unless I initiated a conversation with them.

[thromnombulax]

They do walk (and run) by , ghost81, as many an afternoon spent in the old tharbad guard uniform will hold testament to.
Khazaldor has his new-look Tharbad guard uniform and spear ready in his pack, awaiting the day he can once more get it out around town ;)

Last time he tried, the "real" guards asked him to "put it away" ; and he was so proud of it, too, all hard and smooth like that (the lady in Tharbad Tunes loved it) ; he just loved to show it off in public.

Any chance of the Tharbad guards *not* asking characters to put their weapons away in town, so Khaz can get *his* out as Reagal once more? (after all, he did use up a feat to be able to wield the damn spear ;p)


I'm with you on the skill front Walter. If a character has an interest in disguising itself, it will have a relevant skill (cross-class or not). If it doesnt have the skill, then it is not *in that character's character* to disguise itself ... so a character without the skill wouldnt be rp-ing if it adopted a disguise (since it would be OOC for it)!!!!
[you cant craft an eagle bow without a skill in craft weapon, you can't effectively avoid a knockdown without discipline or a taunt without concentration, and you shouldn't be able to disguise without bluff/persuade IMO]!!!!

Still, for the fun factor and if it's "harmless", then i'm with ghost81 in that, if its just a bit of fun, why not play along with it, particularly if the character has a high charisma rating (you can play it as your character "humouring an obvious madman" or something even, which a few of us have done in the past) :)