Minimized and Maximised Stats & Powerbuilding... musings...

[DM_Olórin]

I realise that we dont have any rules about MIN/MAXed attributes in your character build, and in 'some' cases its justified, but consider creating a character as a rounded and realistic individual, rather than someone designed to do/absorb the most possible damage in combat.

It makes only a small amount of difference to your characters performance at the end of the day but makes a big difference RP wise. For instance not all fighters should be walking around with the borderline personality disorders that a CHA of 8 or 6 would suggest, nor would they all be dense as teak in the brain department either.

Frankly im far happier with my main character since i rebuilt him, i was unhappy about my initial min/maxed build for a while as i felt that his stats did not reflect his personallity or the personallity i wanted him to project. Performance wise, i cant see much difference. Maybe he has dropped his AB by 1, so what, I dont miss it.

Like i say we have no rules regarding stat allocation, but it would be nice to hear your views on the matter and I would encourage you to encourage each other not to min/max your character stats. The reasons are the same as why we dont like powerbuilt class combos. Certain powerbuilds encourage players to min/max their characters and i feel that it can limit them enormously.

Just as a couple of examples: Clerics with CHA penalties. Clerics are meant to have CHA, its part if their connection to the higher power that governs their magic use. Without that they are just a fighter with spells - welcome to the wonderful world of Fist of the North Star :)

Clerics should definately pick a side alignment wise in MERP. Middle Earth has NO neutral powers what so ever.

Another example that i would really like ti discourage - taking rogue levels when you have a low DEX just to get Sneak attacks when in full plate armour. Ive no problems with Fighter/Rogues in principal so long as they are DEX fighters with light armour.

These are just my thoughts on RP and character building. These aint rules... Please think about it. There will be those who think that anything is justifiable just because it is permitted. BUT... I say do your own RP credibility a favour and avoid powerbuilding...

Thank you for your kind attention my children.... *Mithrandir smiles with paternal benevolence and lights his pipe*

[DM_Kev]

I couldn't agree more.

I know we all have different opinion on what exactly defines power building, but in the case of our community, what Olorin described sums power building up well here.

Basically, the best way to avoid power building is to PLAN what character you want BEFORE you enter those stats and skill points.
Decide what the caracters distinguishing features will be.

- Class/es? (You have a choice of two classes overall, of course, you begin with one. To be honest, we don't care what you choose to begin or to multiclass with! Provided things below are taken into consideration. Of course characters stray from their chosen paths. There is nothing wrong with fighter rogues, but make the effort to represent this change - swap the plate armour for the lighter equipment!)

- Great strength? (Can your character carry heavy burdens or deal massive blows in combat? Does your character look well-built and intimidating?)

- Durability? (constitution and later damage reduction feats?)

- Intelligence? (Will your character be a man/woman of many skills or a wide range of magical abilities?)

- Wisdom? (Is your character wise in the ways of the world, or posess the ability to perform a wide range of magical spells?)

- Charisma? (This isn't just 'a bonus for Paladins and Blackguards damage'. Charisma reflect the characters personality, appearence and ability to lead. DM's DO take this into account in some events. Charisma bonuses also INCREASE a number of your skills, if you have points in them.)

- Dexterity? (Is your character supposed to be quick footed? Able to dodge incoming blows with ease? Use light weapons effectively?)

- Alignment? (Will your character serve good or evil? Does he/she want power for themselves or for Mordor? Does he/she serve another purpose of evil? Does your character despise evil and injustice? If your character is good, will he/she follow the lawful way of life or do things their own way?)

- Future Stat additions? (pick a bonus stat that best represents your characters main feature/s. Or, even better, choose a stat that represents recent things your character has done, or maybe based upon a decision the character made. E.G. Taking intelligence insead of strength could give access to more skill points to spend.)

- Appearence? (Even this counts towards something. Allow the appearence to reflect what you have decided above.)

So there are some pointers to avoid power building. Once you have taken all of these into consideration, BUILD YOUR CHARACTER!

Once you have done this, ROLEPLAY YOUR CHOICES!

For example, if a distinguishing feature is;

Strength; Perhaps boast of it, flex muscles, show off, offer to carry heavy equipment, exert your autority granted by personal strength.

Dexterity; Make references to your evasion skills, nimble feet, speed.

Constitution; Perhaps make reference to your good health, the fact something didnt hurt, your ability to endure.

Intelligence; Speak with a strong range of vocabulary, no slang, etc. And for those with intelligence 9 or less, consider serously dumbing speech down. Crude language, lots of slang.

Wisdom; Offer advice and opinions often, speak of your understanding of the world around you.

Charisma; You are good looking and perhaps attractive in the eyes of some characters. Your words rest well with others and you are often naturally accepted as the leader or a commanding figure. Your charm and appearence can grant you powers unavailable to others. E.G. Cleric.

So some pointers there from me. I hope they are useful to those wanting to learn more ways of improving roleplaying skills and the ability to present your character in his/her true form.

The main thing is - Plan your character - decide what they are all about, and build them accordingly. Its actually more fun then making it up as soon as you load the game. And I guarantee, you and others will enjoy your character much more then you previously realised :)

Enjoy the game

[Gloin]

Like Olorin, I have to admit my first chars were a bit min/maxed. I couldn't agree more -- deciding what you want, then building it is much more fun. Even if (perhaps especially if) the character you come up is unusual or atypical. :) Much more fun to play.

[morez]

i think if you want play a stupid but only strong and hard striking rowdy with no charm you should give him the stats.. (i made an orc with charisma 6 and int 8 and i try to play him like that because i wanted to play this stupid beast which never will be a leader of a group but only say: yez yez mazda yoo telly mee mee will kill itzz)

BUT if you dont want to play that rowdy you shouldnt give him too low charisma, intelligence and wisdom stats...

In utt1 you could use the emote wand on another player to persuade him e.g.

i dont know if this is still possible but it would be great if you could persuade/control another player if your charisma is much higher..
that would be also great for some PvP actions:
as long as you dont attack someone and you dont miss this charisma/persuade test the opponent shouldnt be able to attack you...
just considering about that....

[DM_Kev]

There is also nothing to stop you from narrating using asterisks '*'. This can emphasise what you are trying to do. E.g, to be commanding, use charisma. To see through a trick or disguise, use intelligence.

If you carry an INT of 14 or more, consider yourself quite adept at seeing through tricks and disguises. But if the trick/disguise is very good and convincing, consider playing along.

In Middle Earth, orcs were many and very subservient. Of course they had leaders, but this leader should be the only one throwing their weight around, and this would best be by physical strength, not intelligence or charisma. Never known of a good looking orc myself :P

Orcs should keep charismas at a highest of 10 imo and stick to melee classes and evil alignment.

[Argon Balros]

yeah i miss the abillity to bluff pursuade and intimidate other players

[Beeline]

Based on old school rules - and quite clear too. I have built all my chars with this guide in mind. I wonder what everyone thinks...


What is Min-maxing?

The art of juggling a set of character creation options with the intent of creating the most effective player character possible.

This is usually done to maximize combat effectiveness. In extreme forms, it is accomplished by sacrificing any attempt to make the abilities of the character mesh into a coherent whole.

A player more concerned with having the most plusses than role-playing.


What do ability scores mean?

Well lets take the basic book descriptions first. With out involving game mechanics. (i.e. well Neverwinter Nights doesn’t use Charisma for anything so I’ll set that to 6 or 8.)
Characters in AD&D are defined by six major attributes that usually range from 3-18 (with about 9-13 considered to be an 'average' person)

STR (Strength): How much you can carry, how hard you can hit.

DEX (Dexterity): How agile and precise you are.

CON (Constitution): How tough you are.

INT (Intelligence): How smart you are.

WIS (Wisdom): Intuition, how well you understand the world.

CHA (Charisma): More abstract than the others, this combines looks, communication, and sheer force of personality.
- Note it says “combines” which means all. Not just one of the other. I wonder how many players have charisma lower than a gobbos (gobbo has 8 standard) and realizes they should be RPing their character differently? Why would an adventurer be less charismatic than a gobbo?

Another thing to remember is your playing an adventurer 99.9% of the time. And an adventurer usually becomes an adventurer because he/she is above average. So handicapping a character by giving them a bunch of 8 in a character build is very very unlikely.

Hope this is of interest, and perhaps a good guide for new players creating a roleplay character.

[DM_Kev]

Moved to thread already covering this

[ghost81]

Looking at this I don't think anyone says its wrong to have low stats, but you should RP them. Lots of people who play NWN take a ridiculously low charisma because (unless you're a Paladin) it has absolutely no effect on the game, this in turn allows them to max other stats (as mentioned before). However some people take a low stat for another reasin. A case in point is the character Shan Rift - this is played by someone I know who, due to the fact Shan has been cursed and is a mute as a result, has given Shan a lower charisma - roll in the fact he can't speak to anyone, he's a sneaky feller and that he wears black and this all works quite well. I'ev seen him be accused of stealing things in the past - because of what he wears, his known skills - and the fact he doesn't deny anything. However the point is it makes sense for someone who can't speak to have a lower charisma - they may not look ugly, but its hard to charm people who can't understand what you're saying.

[Prophet7]

One of my characters, Tyrion, is an elf weaponmaster. They best CON I could start out with was 14 which is really low compared to others. He did end up with 8's in both charm and wisdom and I try to RP the best that I can. He is an arrogant and a drunk, but sometimes leads a group through his intelligence and planning. And when that planning doesn't work, he doesn't have the wisdom to give up on a fight...

I really disagree with the way this thread seems to discourage having low stats. People aren't really 10's in everything, everyone has their own faults and their own talents. It is the faults that make the character real...i.e. Argon's stubbornness no matter how annoying it can be!! (another good example of a low wisdom) I see an adventurer worth reading about as someone who's gifts and faults are at war with each other, or at least one who isn't average in everything. Those faults create so many options for roleplay and if well used enhance the game more than the average characters.

[ghost81]

These faults do create options for gameplay, but how often are they played. Some people do them really well, others don't. They take a stat drop just so as to increase another stat, and then forget about it to roleplay their character - I think thats where the problem is.

[DM_Kev]

The detailed post I made makes no criticisms of low stats. There has been a number of ideas shown here on whats good and whats bad, but please use the statement I made as this has the backing of the whole Dev team :)

I willl also use it as a character creation guide soon :)

[Luinil]

I'll just make a comment on charisma.

Some people say that charisma represents your looks but I disagree somewhat with that, having high charisma doesn't make you beautiful, just look at a bunch of politicians, I wouldn't call most of them beautiful but they certainly are charismatic!
Your charisma, when it comes to your leadership abilities doesn't really determine if you are a good leader, it determines how well you can have your thoughts, tactics ect. told to others so they understand and follow them. A character with 24 int and 6 cha would be a very bad leader as he wouldn't have any idea at all about how he can tell those around him how he wants the group to proceed, he would be likely to be insecure in his dicisions, constantly questioning himself if this is what they should do which also would be likely to cause the other members of the group to stop trusting him (why trust a man who doesn't even trust his own decisions?). At the same time a man with 20 charisma and 6 int and wis would probs be a bad leader, but he would get his thought out to people and his natural calm and trusting nature would make it likely people would actually follow his likely less then impressive tactics.
A thing to notice is that charisma also is an indication as to how much your character believes in his own abilities.

All these things have been cooked down to one stat and then some skill points if you want to, it is not perfect at all but its what we have to live with. You might have a character who has 10 charisma and is likely to become the next miss universe, but remember what that means for the rest of the things your charisma represents!

[DM_Kev]

We only stated appearence was part of the overall idea of charisma, theres other factors too which we mentioned.

[Luinil]

Yes, but I know from other servers that a lot of people forget the other sides of it so I thought it helpful to mention some of the more important aspects of it aswell, I didn't mean to imply that you said "charisma represents your characters looks" I simply meant to give others an idea of what it also represents.