Blatant abuse of spells

[Guyror]

I was astonished today to find that someone had been abusing the casting of a spell. I went to the market in Tharbad, in order to buy a few cheap clothes in order to create new master pieces with. And I was amazed to see that they were all for sale at nearly 300gp each. When I looked closer, someone had bought these items, cast continual light upon them. And then sold them back.

I do not like it that people cast this spell upon items before selling them in the first place. As this to me is pure metagaming, It is alright if you are going to use the item with light upon it. But I have noticed on a few occassions many people actually casting multiple continual light spells upon all there loot, so that it greatly increases the value.

I do not know if anything can be done about this. But I just thought I would let my thoughts be known.

[Gloin]

I agree this is an exploit. I remember in UTT1 there were light crystals that added a certain colour of light to objects without increasing the value. I suggest either modifying the spell so it does that, or blocking it and reintroducing the crystals.

[Guyror]

That sounds like a good idea. I had forgotten about the light crystals.

[Danae]

I too think the spell can best be removed. The value of this spell in game is very small. Until two weeks ago I didn't even know casting this spell on an item did increase its value. It is indeed a rather fishy way of gaining gold. If such a thing would happen in PnP, I think the casting cleric would soon find his spellpower reduced, seeing a deity can't like it a lot his power is subsequently being used for personal enrichment. (alright, some deities might not mind)

Glogin, the light gems are a good alternative, but don't they increase the item level by 1?

[SNarfel]

hmmm... definetly an abuse... hope it can be sorted out but I also hope that the spell in question is not blocked. Frain is quite fond of that spell and it would be a shame if others had to suffer due to the actions of one stupid individual. Maybe a long time limit on recasting the spell would be more appropriate.

I personaly am against re-introducing the light crystals, that sort of item should not be easily available to all.. anyone wanting light enchantment on thier item should seek the services of a sorceror.

Just my thoughts :)

[DM_Kev]

Problem there is that if we remove light crystals, people can still do continual flame, etc and sell them. And we dont want to bin these spells.

The bonus cash this abuse gives is small, so its not really serious. However - I use the word abuse because it is one. We can't rigourously watch this one, but if you see it being done or if someone suggests or tells you to do it, report to us please.

As this is really starting to annoy players and has become more noticeable, we will strip all gold and 'gold making items' (yes we know the trick now and its annoying me). We will also suspend accounts for 1 week.

Please be watchful for people doing this. I firmly believe in making examples of offenders. If we catch one, the rest tend to stop. But PLEASE don't start this activity yourselves, just 'because others do it'. That wont help solve the problem, and I can assure you that fellow gamers respect for you will plummet fast.

Enjoy the game.

[DM_Kev]

I've just been talking to our excellent new scripter and we have another solution to this problem now.

These actions of buffing and selling will be logged very soon as a script is being created to record all abuses of this spell. Yes, the log will give the login name of the offender.

But please, keep your eyes open for any trouble.

[DM_Olórin]

This light on items thing has been going on for a while. I also think that it is an unfair exploit of a loophole in the game mechanics. I would encourage players not to do it and to discourage their companions that might consider it from doing so.

[DM_Aule]

Quite. It's just as Kev said, and I'd like to confirm that the script is indeed done now. So, you won't be able to spam Continual Flame without it being noticed. See post above regarding what Kev thinks about this kind of exploit. :)

Having said that, it saddens me we have to resort to such measures. If you see anyone do it, try to tell them not to, and report it to the dev team -- including their response. If they agree to behave in future, and didn't know it was an offense, I imagine Kev might be lenient.... at first...

*returns to more productive scripting... like... PrC-related stuff*

[DM_Olórin]

The rewards may be slight on mundane items so enchanted but i imagine they would be higher if one were to cast it on a maug warhammer for example. Ive never tried so im guessing.

The disheartening thing is that its an example of a style of play that goes for maximum gain. who gives a stuff about maximum gain anyhow. One of the players I know to have done this in the past, has been pulled up for other game issues and has desisted from those actions only to have discovered a new one it seems. If he reads this thread I hope he takes note. This p[layer may or may not be the subject of the initial post in this thread, I dont know.

Here is a general comment or two. Not to be taken personally. However, if you feel it applies to you maybe it does...

1 Players here should be mature enough to not have to wait to be told not to take the piss.

2 Good RPing well when you feel like it is not a means to earn brownie points that you can expend like playing a get out of jail free card. While we may appear to show greater tolerance towards good RPers who waver, its not an invitation to see how much we will let you get away with, thats what I find immature and annoying.

3 If it looks like a duck and quacks, chances are its a duck. Similarly, if it looks and feels like an exploit, or out of character or innapropriate to the setting etc and people in your own party even suggest that maybe you shouldnt do it in case its dodgy, then dont. Use good judgement and mature common sense and try to see it from the DMs point of view.

[dsan1]

unlucky me, i discovered this possibilty of making a little extra-money just one week ago! add this to the "forbidden"-rules, i never had thought that this would bother anbody.

[Luinil]

Instead of logging everything wouldn't it be easier to mark all items that the spell is cast upon as "plot" so they cant be sold to NPCs?

[Argon Balros]

ive seen it done several times but i never really concidered it an exploit.
however argon was never pleased about having to wait an entire night while the caster changed his spells.

[Avalyn]

or stolen...maybe the shopkeeper is wary of accepting goods like it...so it refuses to buy it. :P

[DM_Aule]

Hmm. I did think about marking affected items as plot (stolen would be equally possible). Then, however, you wouldn't ever cast it on anything valuable, would you? Suppose you had a +3 sword you wanted to enhance. If you cast continual flame on it, you'd never be able to sell it. I thought that ran contrary to the sentiment that the spell as such should be preserved -- which was expressed by some on the forums.

I don't have a preference, as I have never used the spell myself so far. Kev has the final word -- logging, or mark as plot or stolen.

[SNarfel]

Originally posted by Luinil
Instead of logging everything wouldn't it be easier to mark all items that the spell is cast upon as "plot" so they cant be sold to NPCs?


I hope this is a last resort. When upgrading to new robes my character would certainly want to be able to get some money for his old ones rather than having to trash them.

Once permanent light is cast is the increase in value hardwired or is it adjustable by scripting?

If it is adjustable couldnt the increase be made slightly negative?
eg + (-6 gold) instead +6 gold.

It would certainly put a stop to the abuse and the genuine players could still get something back for used goods.

[DM_Aule]

To the best of my belief, we can't influence the gold piece values NWN calculates for items. Though I could be wrong -- a correction would be very welcome.

[Prophet7]

Shoot...I had no clue this is a problem. I have been doing this for a long time and no one has asked me not to, instead it seems to have been aired out here and become hostile. If you disagree with it simply tell me and others who do it, there is no need to change the scripts because of something like this. From now on I wont do it.

[Argon Balros]

yes i'm sure simply inforing those who do it is wrong is all that is needed as i think many who do it do not concider it an exploit if not all who do it.

[DM_Aule]

Please don't misunderstand us -- the spell is perfectly legitimate, and it's fine to use it to add a "light" property to some piece of equipment you're wearing. We are not saying you shouldn't use the spell.

What is *wrong*, however, is buying all the clothes in Tharbad, enchanting them, and selling them at a profit of (I believe) 12000%. What is also wrong, though somewhat less wrong, is enchanting all your stuff before you sell it with the sole purpose of making more money.

If the dev team thought the spell was completely out of place, it would be removed. It's not, though. As long as its use is sensible, it is a useful part of the game mechanics.

[DM_Olórin]

I think we are all on the same wavelength here. It wasnt and isnt a serious problem. It was more an issue of mature and responsible play. Ive known characters to do this in direct contradiction of thier alignment. Lawful characters should not attempt to pull a fast one on merchants for any reason. :)

[Prophet7]

All my characters are Chaotic...*mischevious grin* I only casted it on stuff I had found to add a little to the profit, expecially in a big party. But I can easily see how it is metagaming. I just didn't realize and no one told me before.

[Argon Balros]

i wouls'nt concider it pulling a fast one on merchants as it is not a temporary effect and the nwn game engine conciders it a valuable effect (and we generaly don't as there is no limit on casting the spell)

so perhaps the spells use should be limited in a similar way as other spells that where classed to powerful.



Or simply ban people from sleeping to change all there spare spell slots to continual flame when it comes to selling the loot.

Because as far as i am concerned the only part of that i would concider an exploit is the sleeping to change the spells.

some people just don't seem to realise that even tho your character is only asleep for 5 seconds real time its suposed to represent at least 5 or 6 hours.

perhaps theres a way of increasing how long it takes to sleep to 5 minutes that would lead to a lot more fun rping who stands guard and the like.

[DM_Aule]

I feel this subject has already been discussed to death, but here goes...

Argon: The issue that prompted this thread and the dev team's action was someone buying all clothes from the merchant in Tharbad, enchanting them and selling them back. Considering you can buy them for 1 gp and sell them for 120-ish gp afterwards (at least, if I recall correctly, that's the way with "normal" weapons like daggers and quarterstaves), this gives anyone who does it a disproportionately huge amount of money. Of course, they have to repeatedly rest, cast 4 spells, rest cast 4 spells etc, and this on its own is very bad form. We feel, however, that such an easy way of making money is against the spirit of the gameworld and cheats the dev team out of part of their efforts. Great pains were taken to balance the economy to the low-gold world that we have, and having players go around saying that gold is not an issue (yes, I am aware of at least one such case), quite frankly, just takes the piss.

All we're asking is a little common sense. Want to enchant something you're using so you don't need to carry a torch all the time? Fine. Find yourself buying all the dirt-cheap items somewhere and selling them back at 120x the price? Not fine. Personally I wouldn't be too keen on someone enchanting all the loot from a dungeon crawl before selling it either, but that's arguably less bad than the technique of buying cheap stuff and selling it.

I really do think this matter now has received far more attention than it deserved.

[DM_Kev]

Indeed. The point has been made often enough.

The logging system will be added this Thursday when my computer should finally be fixed up.