Welcoming new players

[DM_Kev]

I've noticed that we have had a number of new players on the server recently. We have had a number of good reports from players and DMs about them.

Its always nice to have such good quality players joining the community. It would be helpful if we got them involved in the forums and hopefully the irc channel too. That way they can be more informed and enjoy the community more by getting to know players and sharing their ideas/knowledge with us all.

So please be helpful to new players, hopefully they will enrich the community more. Now that we have a decisive way of dealing with trouble makers or those not here to RP, Im noticing that the RP quality here has shot up, with more people paying attention to the true object of the game. Im hoping that now we have less/no trouble makers this will stop potentially good players from leaving due to experiencing the antics of idiots :)

[Lorien]

On which note I intend to run a low level event tomorrow evening - most likely for good aligned characters this time as there seem to be more new good aligned characters than evil.

If you have a low-level (upto about 5 or 6) good character be in Bree at around 20:00 - 20:30 hours British Summer Time tomorrow. (To give a clue by british summer time this post is being made at approximately 00:10 BST).

[DM_Olórin]

One thing that put me off playing my evil chracters was the bloody aggravating Thrall issue and infighting that some of the recently departed used to insist upon. I found it was simply no fun to go around at full speed with a party that barely spoke and then only to verbally abuse anyone of lower level than themselves within their own party. If that was the limit of what they thought evil was then i pity their lack of imagination. I dont miss that style of play at all and with the excellent evil players we have entrenched here like limpets on rocks :) I may well give my big thug and my twisted one an airing....

*chuckles darkly at the thought of cold waters and spiders*

Just to clarify, I am not criticizing anyone who RPs a master and thrall relationship by happy mutual agreement, but to have it forced upon you as the norm with the penalty of death if you dont like the suggestion is not agreeable to me. This server encourages party play and both of my evil characters usually had to travel alone for that reason. Anyone who has had to put up with years of real-life bullyboy arsehole tactics will agree i think.

Pardon my language but nuts n berries dont always cut it :)

[Argon Balros]

i agree i was put off playing an evil character for th reasons you have just stated but i've found things have definately improved as of late :)

[wyrmwrath]

UK time is 6 hours (daylight saving time there) ahead of USA eastern standard time if that helps further.

[wyrmwrath]

Having been bullied as a child, i can understand Olorins comment. growing to 6'4" and 300 pounds in my teens meant I was the one showing the bullies how it felt. So i can say that power it tempting, and the hand/thrall relationship may get abused, but I think its crucial in the evil groups for two reasons.

First, its right out of the books the game world is based on. Might makes right and if you were lesser you were a lackey.

Second. it takes a bit to be the big bad evil PC. Right now Khaev has that title until I...eerr...somone takes it from him. Ithe title not only comes with the right to be the "alpha male" but the responsability to ensure the evils are living up to being naughty in a manner that makes the evils work together. RP correctly, and not be at each others throats all the time. Somone has to be the pack leader in the evil crowd. its accurate and of benefit to the server. Like policing thier/our own. Today was the second time I have seen khaev handle a player on player RP issue( this Pc gates that PC). Both times he has played the leader role well. If there was no leader/thrall interaction with the evils, I do not think the PC would have the clout to do that without resorting to straight PVP.

[Lorien]

Following the announcement in this thread:

http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=306236

I will now be running a low-level event for good aligned characters either on Thursday (if we come back online then) or over the weekend (not Friday evening, I'll be out).

[SNarfel]

DM Lorien, your original post said tomorrow, and as you posted after midnight... that meant Thursday in any event....:P

Just thought I would bring that to your attention... in case you did mean the event to run today.. for erm.. future ref.

[Lorien]

*Shakes head at self*

Although I had posted after mid-night I for some reason still assumed I was posting on Tuesday - my brain tends to work on the - its not tomorrow till you've been to bed and woken up again. Ah well forgetfulness gets to us all sooner or later.

[Argon Balros]

lorien i think most people concider that a new day starts when you get outta bed in the morning.

[DM_Olórin]

Wyrmrath... I accept what you say about the biggest dog mentality and all that. Yes its appropriate I suppose. But have a think about what that means from the point of view of competitiveness among players.

Do we want competitive play. That in my experience means one thing usually, who can be highest level. No thanks matey. Its too PvP oriented as the recently departed evils were much to the annoyance of many i believe. Then good players wil feel the need to keep their end up and level up to be able to stand up to the evil top dog. More PvP... It may be appropriate and In Character but it encourages a lot of very bad gaming habits and character build strategies.

That said Khaev is very good at what he does. Hes no bully and he leads well :) There is less motivation to voluntarily co-operate in many evil mentalities rather than in good, so a firm hand to quell the squabblin is a good thing (or an evil thing - you know what I mean). I still feel that the overall attitude from our departed players was just no fun except for them. Evidenced by the fact that many of the remaining evil players did not want to party with them. Apart from the mad dwarf among them, they seldom abused each other, just anyone else who entered their circle. That would be no fun for any of my characters, how can you RP the character to its fullest under those conditions, you cant unless the character is by nature submissive and that is a defining aspect of their nature. :P

And if i was 6'4" and as stocky as I am now with my upperbody strength scaled proportionately I would be Hagrid, not Olorin. and I would be able to hammer fenceposts in with my elbows. In fact I would probably get mistaken for either an Olog-hai or Mighty Joe Young :P and l'd fear to leave the house for the constant shower of tranquilizer darts.

[wyrmwrath]

well...I know keeping names out is often a good thing, but i still play an evil Pc....and from what i can tell wh havent lost anyone worth noticing, except maybe scrill and the last big evil mage((cant remember the PC name))

Hell...I dont even know who you are reffering to...but they coudnt have been that influential. As for biggest level meaning alpha, I think that since might makes right tends to be the rule in evil settings, I know an evil Pc or two that could knock Khaev of his pedestal and they are neither his level or warriors. The PCs in question just dont want it ... yet.

I can see the fact that mostlt it could be a PVP thing, but that will never ohase me. PVP is part of this world setting, I think trying to avoid it is silly. Im not talking about the "hey you in the same zone i am and of the other side so i must kill you" or the " hey i just looked and your moderate so ill kill ya if you dont bow" type of PVP....i mean the stuff that happens when and for why it should. Seems to me to be several players that care if thier PC dies in PVP because its so hard to get exp/gold. I just thing the journey is worth a few lay overs...so to speak.

[DM_Olórin]

That wasnt really my argument. Im not against appropraiate PvP, it just shouldnt be all the time. This server is not meant to run that way, nor will it. :P

My argument is about competitive play and what sort of influence that can have on the way players behave in general and their character builds. Some players still fail to communicate as they should with their companions and we still see a lot of charging around after XP, players impatient with thse that want to take their time, RPer that have to run to keep up all the time. :(

It is getting better (a lot better) but competitiveness isn't gonna discourage it. And we ARE trying to discourage it, trust me on this.

[thromnombulax]

I dont think PvP can decide all matters of squabbles ; or even leadership... a lot of leeway must be given to RP. For instance; a Black Numenorean character is simply not going to be able to stand up against a Fighter/Weapon Master, Blackguard or Olog-Hai of similar level in PvP (well at least mine never will), but as one of Saurons Elite, should probably be listened to by its peers; the fact that they ARE a Black Numenorean should hold sway. Khaev will not be knocked from his perch by pvp but by a character class, provided RP takes presidence. ;)
:bomb:
Similarly the Olog is likely to be a hard - hitting class from the looks of it ; but what human is going to follow a Troll ? (and no jokes on marriage please ;p)

[SNarfel]

Nice one Throm.. I couldnt agree more.

[DM_Olórin]

SNarfel if your missus reads that lad.... well i dunno

Maybe it doesnt have to be all about level. In tyrannical systems it was often who you know and who your dangerous mates were that kept rivals at bay. Look at Grima Wormtongue. A rogue Assassin type if ever I saw one... but he had at least one very influential friend.

[DM_Kev]

Our view point on Ologs is that they were created by Sauron to serve him. They are just batteries of solid mobile strengh. So your right in saying that they wouldn't lead. You tell them what to do and they do it :P

[morez]

"YOO MEE TELL KILL ZEM ME KILL ZEM! PLEEZ TELL MEE KILL ZEM. YOO TELL MEE KILL ZEM?" (Gkraakz 3010 III)

[Prophet7]

Side note...Throm, for all RP purposes Khaev is a black Numenorian because he is from Harad.

[thromnombulax]

Nope ; there is a prestige class called Black Numenorean... they are numenoreans mate. Haradwaith (or haradrim) were conquered by the numenoreans perhaps (who if memory serves landed at Umbar and elsewhere). Black Numenoreans are of Elros' stock(as is Aragorn). The "Black" bit refers to their demeanor, not skin tone (although they may be lightly tanned )
This is off the top of me head without looking it up. :)
But Harad *is* pretty big.
Black Numenoreans are whats left of the "goodies" who were perverted by Sauron; Aragorns stock are what remain of the descendants of "The Faithful" (those who werent perverted by evil).
Khaev is a Fighter/Weapon Master and our illustrious leader. Surely if he had wanted to be a Black numenorean he would have chosen the class specially created by the dev team for that eh;)
The Haradwaith *did* attack and over-run Umbar and became the "new" Corsairs, mingling their blood with those of Southern Gondor, and have a history of constant skirmish warfare with Gondor i believe.

For any casual viewers of this ; Khaev is an ally, a friend and a fine leader and no criticism is intended nor implied here; also the player of Khaev is a fine chap who i constantly party with; again no criticism intended. (He knows this without saying but casual readers may not ;) )

[ghost81]

Yeah, very few humans who server Sauron would actually be Black Numenorean - just as most humans of the North/West aren't Dunedain. By the time of our setting they had been totally scattered across the south for about 1900 years.

They were scattered in 1050, and the Battle of Pelenor Field (in the Return of the King) took place in 3019. So the races that served Sauron may have had some Balck Numenorean stock in them (much like there is ome dunedain stock in Gondor) but the majority of them were not Black Numenorean.

The majprity of those from Harad are the Haradrim or Southrons - some of whom were ruled by black numenoreans.

[thromnombulax]

Found this for any interested ;

http://harad.elendor.net/guide_people.php

[Prophet7]

From the Encyclopedia of Arda...
"The Black Númenóreans were not destroyed in the War of the Last Alliance, but after their master's fall, they rapidly diminished and were absorbed into the native peoples of Middle-earth. Nonetheless, even at the end of the Third Age, three thousand years later, there were some who claimed descent from the Black Númenóreans. The emissary known as the Mouth of Sauron was one of these. Umbar is a cape in the far south of Middle-earth long held by Black Númenóreans, but conquered by Gondor for a time during the Third Age..."

The Black Numenorians lived in Umbar for over an Age and by that time had diffused their blood into the people of Harad. They would probably be the closest thing to the original pure blood of the Numenorians except the line of Kings of Arnor and Gondor, due to inbreeding. Despite what class he is, a Haradrim would be considered a Black Numenorian (why I said for all RP purposes).

"The doughty, dark-skinned Men of the southern regions of Middle-earth. Historical allies of Mordor, they were more properly known as the Haradrim."

Tolkien based the people and cultures of Middle Earth on those of the real world; Gondor's emphasis on Rangers (English Longbowmen), Rohan's horsemen (Huns, Scythians, Slavs), and Dwarves (Vikings, Goths, and Saxons). Harad, expecially Umbar, can be seen as Carthage. It is a safe harbor surrounded by desert and has Oliphants with riders on top, just like Hannibal's war elephants. Harad is pretty big, separated into Near Harad (Umbar) and Far Harad. Far Harad would likely be similar to Southern Africa and possibly far enough away that Numenorian blood reached few people in all that time.

Anyways, if you think about it Haradrim would be closer to being true Black Numenorians than those that went off to hide in the cities and towns because there was a larger concentration of Numenorians in one place. Sorry Kev, *way* off topic.

[thromnombulax]

Try a few more sources mate (i looked at 3 before giving that link); most seem to disagree on the reference you gave ; Black Numenoreans are effectively Dunedain (not the desert nomads of Harad), they speak Adunaic, not the tongue of the haradrim :)
Also its a pretty big "think about" ; "Haradrim would be closer to being true Black Numenorians than those that..."
Their blood *would* be mingled, yes .. but only in the same way that Aragorns' kin was.

[Lorien]

I'd have to disagree there. From an RP point of view someone would only be considered a Black Numenorean if they have chosen this sub-race -either in their description of the characetr or their background knowledge of their character.

Anyone who hasn't specifically chosen this sub-race would be presumed to be one of the lesser peoples. Calling anyone from Harad a black Numenorean is like calling anyone from Gondor a Dunedain - its totally inaccurate.

*heheh, posted at same time as Throm*

[Prophet7]

*sighs* I don't mean any offense Throm, but I don't trust that site anymore...In one of my posts in the PCT (URL=http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=302904&perpage=25&pagenumber=3]here[/URL] I found a translator on that site, www.elendor.net, that translated into different Elven languages. But Morez pointed out it had problems in a reply to that post.

Anyways looking at that site I wonder where they found all that information. Harad and the Black Numenorians are little mentioned in LOTR or the Silmarrion, yet there are several pages on everything from the calendar to customs to the entire Code of Laws and constitution. Now after looking farther into the site it is the website for an text-based online RPG set in Middle Earth, not a site based on Tolkien's work itself. I'd be wary using that for information.

[DM_Kev]

No worries, has given me ideas for our Harad project which will begin very soon.

[Lorien]

Whereas the information quoted by ghost comes from the complete guide to middle earth described by Christopher Tolkien as 'an admirable work of reference', which kinda give it precendence over the encyclopedia of arda and the like.

[thromnombulax]

Aye, i cant speak for the dev team, but the class was created for a reason; to be played eh :)
And Tolkiens Son's epic job of assembling his fathers notes is what i read (ages ago) for my background stuff; the Lost Tales and The History (still havent finished the 6th one though)
No offense taken Proph7 ; theres only one debate that beats a good debate (and wyrmwrath will prolly post asking about this ;p *waves to wyrmwrath*)!!!! The link i posted was simply the 3rd one i found that said the same thing *shrugs*

[Prophet7]

Okay I see your point...Not all Haradrim are Numenorian or are all Black Numenorians Haradrim. *But* I still stand by the idea that a large portion of the Black Numenorians settled there and would be the best place to find one with a lot of Numenorian blood. I think someone playing a Haradrim doesn't have to be a Black Numenorian, but someone playing a Black Numenorian should think about being Haradrim.

[Lorien]

I'd agree that a majority of Black Numenoreans would be settledf in Harad, but then I'd recommend they choose Black Numenorean as a sub-race rather than Haradrim.

[thromnombulax]

The npc Black Numenoreans kinda all look like Westerners too....

[wyrmwrath]

"(and wyrmwrath will prolly post asking about this ;p *waves to wyrmwrath*)!!!!"

uhmmm...what?

[thromnombulax]

Heh .. told yas :D

Nothing of import matey mate o mine; i was trying to be subtle yet rude. No need for a mass debate , eh ;)

*cough*

[morez]

http://www.sospello.com/umbar/index2.htm
http://harad.elendor.net/guide_people.php
....

Yûshmar: 'the black numenorians are teh colonialists we have to wipe out not the gondorians... they have the same origin but came much later...."

the black numenorians are controlling umbar... not man of the south they are comeing from numenor not from harad so they shall go :)

[clone number 3]

In order to promote the server and attract new players, have the team thought of organising a DM event and advertising it on Neverwinter connections?

[DM_Aule]

Hmm.. I don't know, I don't think we have. But considering that even DM events that we announce just on these forums are well oversubscribed, I'm not sure if such an idea would be helpful or not.. hmm...

[ghost81]

Unless ot was a subscription only event - and only to new players who book through the Neverwinter connections.

[Argon Balros]

and it might be an idea if its done on the other server as well

[Burin]

I think this is about "Welcoming new players...." I hope I've put this in the right place. Apologies if it should be somewhere else.

From the perspective of a newcomer with more gaming experience than most (I was board-gaming before Avalon Hill came along and DM'ing (by a different name) before and along with 1st edition D&D) and LESS online gaming experience than almost anyone, what seems UNIQUE about this place is the sincere effort made by everyone to offer an experience with near-transparent artificial rules and an emphasis on "living" in a coherent world that has an existence outside the game. What is most ENJOYABLE is the many levels of interaction with a varied group of individuals: from being invited to share the adventures of others, to casual conversation—friendly or otherwise--- at the intersection of two adventures, to being pointedly ignored while others talk about you in the course of their own adventures....in short, the kinds of interactions we all have every day in our self-styled "real" lives.

The few things I dislike about the place are those things that are discouraged or forbidden by the RULES anyway, but which crop up in any game....players who try to short-cut the few restrictions or emphasize constant movement climbing the level ladder rather than pausing to enjoy the details that make the world; wide-spread (what seems to me) misuse of the "tell" channel to ask and receive information not otherwise available, like the steady stream of "what-level-are-you's, and are-you-evil's" that I seem to attract. I should add that I'm as guilty as any player of using "tell" to search for something to do. Of course, we all want to know this kind of stuff, and even Tolkien's world had long-distance communications (the Palantiri, for example), but the telecom industry was certainly smaller, and less was known about those not immediately present than we as players seem ready to accept. Are the guidelines for using the "tell" that say the medium is meant to be used "in character" still valid?

What I would welcome in (the) future, if there is to be one, is more emphasis on HISTORY. In spite of the depth of Tolkien's work, and the faithful adaptation of this work in the game, history here is one-way. It is always past and always equally far past. We all spring weak as babes into the same world, no matter when we begin, and our best efforts never change the world. That is, for me, too much like a pessimist's view of the "real" world! Actually, history never stops; today’s adventures are tomorrow’s history. I think many of Trista’s comments are meant to address this issue, as are some of the forum threads initiated by the Valar. But until what the players do is reflected in the game experience, it will remain a linear world, with beginners clustered at one end, performing tasks (mostly several times) that never have an effect on the world. Despite many defeats (and not a few victories) those pesky goblins are never driven out of their original lair in the South Downs, nor do they grow rich and multiply with the spoils of their victims. Barliman never learns from his stablehand’s failure to protect his clients’ endless supply of harps that no one can play, and the otherwise-vigilant rangers never get around to following up on the incriminating note that countless law-abiding players have delivered to them. Ferny thus continues to connive with the durable robbers whose whereabouts is known to everyone except the newest player. You can do better, I think. In the course of events, even in Middle Earth, adventures come to us more often than we set out to seek them. The most stodgy village has enough challenges and surprises to fully occupy most of its inhabitants their entire lives! And a place on the edge of a settled country—like Bree, for example—must be teeming with new chances and choices. The same great effort and imagination that the Valar put into expanding the world can also round and deepen it. Goblin Caves can be sealed by powerful characters or the upheavals of nature. New goblin invasions can discover and enlarge previously unknown or unused dens. The rangers will surely move their camp when the buried waste-pits get so numerous that they have to go in force on journeys to the toilet! Even the place-loving Stoors will seek other lodgings when their own are invaded once too often, leaving ruins apt for haunting and forgotten treasures in the foundations of ruined shops and dwellings.

Finally, I would hope to find that PLACES are not to be quite so closely-bound to “levels.” Remember, the peaceful shire had “adventures to scale” in the quarrels between the Miller and his son and other hobbits, in the adventures of the bounders, the parties of the Bagginses, and so forth, but it was also the location of epic invasions by wolf and orc, and the most terrible of creatures once rode its quiet lanes and byways. The most difficult challenges are not always found in distant and legendary lands. If Bree had events that required the leadership and skills of great heroes, there would be more of them enlivening the lives of the beginners without just showing up to shower them with the xp and gold for no more effort than trailing along on the few low-level quests that are available there, but meant to challenge them.

As a postscript, please know that I have never, except in imagination, played in a finer playground, and I have only seldom encountered such a fine group of dedicated and competent gamers.

Burin

[Argon Balros]

well to constanly change the npc missions would require a lot of work.

so we use dm quest to do interesting new things and change the world, a good exaple would be the regime change in tharbad popered by a string of events by dms and players

[DM_Olórin]

A great many of the things that players do effect the way we portray the world of Middle Earth. As things stand we are working flat out to expand the map into currently missing areas and having to frequently rework existing content would end up being a full time job for the dev tem. I myself find little time to DM or RP what with juggling world related projects and a full time real-life job.

But thanks for your comments and we hope that you continue to enjoy what we have so far, and contribute on the forums. :)

[RichardW]

Very well written Burin, I agree with almost everything you said. To sum things up I believe the Valar certainly have the skills and imagination to "deepen" the available world instead of expanding it.

What I seek in NWN is the chance to make a difference in someone else's world and I love feeling that my actions DO make a difference in the surroundings. That being said, this IS the closest I've ever seen to what I used to imagine, but of course, there is much room for improvement as well.

The overall quality of the Role-playing here IS , despite what some might say, VERY HIGH already! The problem isn't there I'm sure, this community HAS the potential and the maturity to handle more responsability and with that, make a real statement in this world.

I've been playing here for quite some time now, and I plan on staying for a lot more of course, but the truth is, I WOULD like to see some changes in some areas such as:

- More and better contact between high and low level players.
- The quests we do so often (and sometimes more than once) affecting the world in some way. (nothing too drastic)
- More players being given the liberty and support to create their own stories and quests, involving players from both factions.
Etc.

As I write this I stand here, thinking like a newly arrived player because I feel today the same as I did months ago, I see a great server with the potential to become even so much better. Hope that helped. :)

[clone number 3]

The thing we have to keep in mind here, is that we're playing in somebody else's world - Prof Tolkien's.

This is not a world dreamt up by us, the Dev team or Kev. So there is a limit on how much our characters can effect the world, if we want the server to remain true to the original works (which I think we do).

This is not a "blank canvas" like Forgotten realms, where we can become kings and gods. It's people like Gandalf and Aragorn that alter the world, not Greg and Frain (though Frain may alter the culinary world).

I do think there is scope for small changes to be made to the world - like we see with the fellowships, but because the "goods" storm Isengard one night, we can't level the place for good!

I do think your post is very good Burin and will hopefully spark an interesting debate :)

[ghost81]

One thing to remember is that in very few online games can you really make a difference to the world. If there was a set number of players this would be different, however because we constantly attract new players we need things to be in place for them. Newcomers are attracted by the fact that we are a Tolkien world with I believe a very specific setting. If player actions could influence the world that much newcomers would come to find a much changed world and may be put off.

If this was a PnP campaign that would be different. Having said that DM's do try to take character actions into consideration, and events do change the world occasionally. *thinks of the recent power switch in Tharbad*

I would also like to point out once more somthing that has been said before but not for a while, the Dev team have very much powered down characetrs in this incarnation of UTT, and our characters are meant to be a bit more than the average citizen, but on no way anywhere near as world changing as the characters from the books.

[RichardW]

Again I must say this and sorry for posting this again but...

- The quests we do so often (and sometimes more than once) affecting the world in some way. (nothing too drastic)

Nothing drastic, don't want to be Aragorn BUT it WOULD be good to see our quests having ANY kind of effect in the world, even if it's Theoden patting me on the back and saying "well done!"
(a bit of a ridiculous example but you get my point.)

Or If we did a certain quest X times it could change what was asked from us a little, or change a certain NPCs way of acting from X to Y... that's it really. :)

[DM_Aule]

In the end, there are two things that bound the extent to which we can incorporate Burin's suggestions -- the amount of work they require, and the "role" of characters in the world.

As was already said, we are currently working full-time on expanding the game world to those areas which aren't yet accessible. In particular, the Shire and Harad projects will both highly improve the situation for new players, by providing extensive and detailed starting areas for low-level good and evil characters. Going to the same goblin cave several times will not be so pressing once these are in. What we cannot do, and do not try to do, is modify the world after each quest is completed. The quests are there, as I see it, as a replacement for DM events, because we cannot be online all the time. If the first time someone recovered a letter from Elrond, the world was changed to accommodate the fact that Elrond now knows the news in the letter, then there really is no point in making the quest in the first place -- it's a one-off event. If the first time someone kills the druid on Tolfalas we remove him and all mad animals from the island, then that will have reflected a party's good deeds, but will leave countless other adventurers without a similar challenge.

Let me also clarify the second point. We have stated time and time again that the player characters are *not* meant to be gods, or even heroes. They are perhaps slightly more talented than average for their race and alignment, to allow them to rise above the crowd initially, but they are nowhere near the prowess of named characters from the book (as someone said, Gandalf and Aragorn make history, not player characters X and Y). Having said that, as characters progress in level of course they become better known in the world. But even a level 40 character would be far inferior to the truly historic people of Middle Earth -- Saruman and Gothmog, the Balrog of Moria, but also Samwise Gamgee and Peregrin Took.

We know players like to see their own actions affect the world. This was one of the reasons the token system was introduced -- it gives you a sense of progression within each faction, you're not offered the same quests over and over again. There, we have tried to achieve the sense of changing the world without DM involvement, by making NPCs recognise the player by name, and show more trust and respect for them.

Essentially, what you're asking is constant DM events. I remember once I spiced up the Tolfalas Druid quest for Teclis and Ami... I think they enjoyed it, of course because it was "new" and "different", but mainly because they knew that each of their actions had a direct effect on the world. I'm afraid we cannot script the "standard" quests to such a high level of detail.

Where appropriate, we have always tried (and will continue to do so) to incorporate player characters into the world. Kev's suggestion of PC-owned houses goes in that direction. The revolt in Tharbad, and the following investigations and power struggles there, were all prompted by players.

Richard.. you say you'd like to see "More players being given the liberty and support to create their own stories and quests, involving players from both factions." Well, so would I. We do what we can to encourage just this type of thing. It happens... Prophet7 in particular often came up with such schemes. The Yushmar/Akbar duel and various characters he created exclusively to enrich others' RP spring to mind. The DM team is always willing to assist with any player-initiated quest or undertaking. I have personally accommodated requests quite frequently, and indeed I find they usually lead to far more satisfying quests, but it's up to the players to get them started. We do what we can, and in fact we have several ideas lined up that could make this aspect more prominent.

One last point that I feel I should comment on.. several people said they'd like more communication between high and low levels, or areas which aren't targeted at specific "levels" (which is essentially the same thing). Well, unfortunately the reasons for the status quo are quite compelling. The NWN engine is such that a player who is 6-7 levels lower than a party member can't possibly contribute anything useful to the higher-level's fights. Either the creatures they encounter are challenging for the lower-level and instant kills for the higher, or challenging for the higher-level and kill the lower instantly. From a DM's perspective, it's a nightmare to try to come up with a quest involving combat if the level spread of the group is large, since whatever you throw at them is either wiped out within 3 seconds or kills half the party in 2.

You will have noticed that all I said was in relation to combat. Non-combat quests can, of course, be attempted by all players. Pure RP quests can be attempted by all players. Several DMs have been known to run such events. Unfortunately, they are virtually impossible to do without DM involvement, which is why we have the "level"-related rules and restrictions. Anyone who has ever received a tell saying something like "powerlvl me plz!" will know what I'm talking about. Of course we would never dream of discouraging a higher-level char talking to a new char. Use common sense. *gd&r*

To summarise -- I think you make valid points, but the extent to which you envision them being addressed is unrealistic. We can strive to provide full feedback for all PC actions on DM events, but doing so in the game-world at large is an unattainable goal. On a "small" scale, we already (attempt to) do it.

*grins* Ask Vinduil about cows.


RichardW says:
Again I must say this and sorry for posting this again but...
- The quests we do so often (and sometimes more than once) affecting the world in some way. (nothing too drastic)
Nothing drastic, don't want to be Aragorn BUT it WOULD be good to see our quests having ANY kind of effect in the world, even if it's Theoden patting me on the back and saying "well done!" (a bit of a ridiculous example but you get my point.)
Or If we did a certain quest X times it could change what was asked from us a little, or change a certain NPCs way of acting from X to Y... that's it really.

This already happens! It's the token system. If you complete the quest for Theoden, you get the relevant token, and further attempts to speak with him will produce a "Thank you for your help, Richard Wensbane"-type message. :)

[RichardW]

That is clearly not what I am talking about and you will see it if you analize my post again, that is having an NPC acting one way BEFORE you complete a quest and another AFTER you have done it. I'm speaking of changing NPC behaviour all together after some quests are done. If you kill enough Wildmen maybe, just maybe... they will ask you for something a bit different, get my idea? ;)

Edit: I also understand this would take a lot of work to implement, but I believe it could spice things up, maybe done gradually over time? Because as things stand we pretty much know where they are headed most of the time, we need to be surprised more often I believe. :)

[Lorien]

You seem to be saying exactly the same thing - first you say Aule speaks of an NPC acting one way before and after a quest, then you ask us to change the way they act after you've done quests - EXACTLY the same thing.

Having recently been working on one of our new areas and writing conversations that change on whether or not you're a certain race, or have a certain items I can say that each little change takes a long time. Already convo's change depending on what you've done, take minas tirith - most of the ruling family won't speak to you at first - but do once you've done certain quests. Also once you reach a certain point they point you on to somthing else.

This will have taken a long time to script - and changes based on number of kills etc. would be unwieldy and actually have no point in relation to the server as a whole.

[Argon Balros]

perhaps you should concider when asking for such a large amout of work to be done if you would be willing to put in the effort and if so why don't you richard

[DM_Olórin]

Richard that would be utterly impractical to implement... it would involve changing the convos of the major NPCs constntly. And constantly changing the quests in the same area.

The mod would NEVER expand, there would simply be no time to add new areas and new content. I understand perfectly well what you are trying to say but unfortunately such a level of change would involve CONSTANT supervision and revision. How would lower level characters get to develop when quests is no longer available and have been replaced :)

The only way around it would be to have the mod 100% DM controlled all the time.

[RichardW]

I tried to explained my view as best as I know but I apologise for it seems it is quite absurd after all.
Perhaps in time, you will understand what I was asking as it wasn't really that complicated and even though I do not have the knowledge to play games of semantics, I tried to be as objective as I could.

I am quite sorry, I will just enjoy things and wait for others to come up with ideas, and hope of course, that they will match my previous expectations. Keep up the good work! :)

Edit: Your post is quite unfair Argon, you know if I could I WOULD help this server improve in any WAY I could... and I'm not joking about that.

[Lorien]

RichardW I do understand what you are saying,and fully get where you are coming from, but it would involve the DM's doing nothing but changing the convo's etc constantly. I wish we could - but if we were to do this we wouldn't get to play (which is where we usually find out what needs doing with the world), we'd not get to develop new areas (and I know people want to see Loth Lorien, the Dead Marshes etc.) and we'd never get to do DM events. Every change of script takes time, and we all do this on a voluntary basis, and most of us hold down full time jobs too.

[RichardW]

I understand Lorien, thank you for the reply and thanks to all the other DMs as well. Perhaps you can find an easier way to "surprise" us more often then. You are the ones who know how to script it, not me, that's for sure. :)

Edit: I miss that "rush" I used to have in the old days, now we have most people saying, or at least thinking "let's do this quest we can handle it!". Where is the surprise? Where is the danger really?
We can role-play it in a way that our characters don't know what's coming but out here... we do know what's going to happen most of the time. All we can do is try not to metagame, but no more than that, truly.
In other games we are forced to stick with a certain plot and when it ends... it is time to move to another game. Here, we can change things to keep it interesting for a very long time.

THAT is what I wanted to say! (took me a bit too...) :P

[DM_Elbereth`]

Well, to get things back on track - it would be an awful lot of work, constant work, and would keep DM's very very busy doing things *other* than DM-ing.. everyone can see that, I hope.

Most of the "world changing" quests, where NPC's react to what you're doing, do need a DM. Personally I'd be more than happy if a player sent a tell asking for a little assistance with their own events. Enriching the world in this way, to me, would be a lot more fun than having NPC's reacting differently all the time, constantly changing - and the *next* new players would miss out on all the original fun, you wouldn't want that ;)

If players ever see me on DM-ing, I'm more than happy to accomodate any kind of plot you have in mind, after all, we're here to make things more fun for the players - but since we can't be around all the time, I'd just like to say, with a little imagination on the players part, that next quest you're going on can be something completely different from the 'last' time :)

[Ptolomy]

Changes do happen, Vinduil's boots have never been the same since a close encounter with a cow in Edoras! :)

[DM_Kev]

(This post addresses points made by Burin)

A lot of good points made here. I'll work though them and see what we can actually take from it all. First off, thanks for your comments Burin. You are a very valued player here and I hope you continue to enjoy the game.


The few things I dislike about the place are those things that are discouraged or forbidden by the RULES anyway, but which crop up in any game....players who try to short-cut the few restrictions or emphasize constant movement climbing the level ladder rather than pausing to enjoy the details that make the world; wide-spread (what seems to me) misuse of the "tell" channel to ask and receive information not otherwise available, like the steady stream of "what-level-are-you's, and are-you-evil's" that I seem to attract. I should add that I'm as guilty as any player of using "tell" to search for something to do. Of course, we all want to know this kind of stuff, and even Tolkien's world had long-distance communications (the Palantiri, for example), but the telecom industry was certainly smaller, and less was known about those not immediately present than we as players seem ready to accept. Are the guidelines for using the "tell" that say the medium is meant to be used "in character" still valid?

I'll take this opportunity to talk about how rules have affected us over the 2 years we have existed. When MERP UK started up, we wanted a roleplay community with less rules and that relies more on the common sense and goodwill of its players. It sounds great, doesn't it. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a very idealistic policy. Too often we were getting complaints of players disrupting the enjoyment of our target audience, the roleplayers.

I have come to the conclusion that in order to keep things running smoothly and to protect the enjoyment of our audience, we need to spell out the rules to people for each and every issue that causes problems. I have had two years experience of this and my first approach to rules was a big mistake. I have noticed a huge improvement with how we go about things now and we haven't had a valid compliaint about our RP standards for a long time. If you want to run a serious roleplay community, you have to be very specific about the sort of conduct expected.

Now the issue you bring up is about innapropriate use of the tell channel. This is an area we cannot moderate without introducing a log to record communications - something we don't plan on doing at this time. This is an area where we have to rely on common sense, that the player will know how best to use it. Obviously not all players use it responsibly, and ask all manner of questions. Though, with many negative things that go on here, it is a small minority. All you can honestly do is what others tend to do; Ignore the tells, or tell a DM about it and they will tell them to refrain from doing it.

Tell should preferably be used in character for things like directing friends to result in you meeting them. E.g. sending a message. However (and here is where common sense comes in) you can use tell if you have something urgent to say; a player crashed, you are afk or if its a technical issue.

Turning to your comments on history and its current impact on the world - you're absoloutely right. Things are linear and repetitive, despite your character completing so many tasks. More should definately be done to make a character feel that they have impacted on the world. However, there are parameters on the amount of change we can make. I would love nothing more than to turn a settlement to a ruin every time it is raided, or wipe out every goblin tribe when they are removed by a character. The problem is time and resources.

Even with the biggest team in the world, we would not be able to do that. It requires changes to be made at the toolset level, which, with a mod of this size, takes a very long time. When we executed the 'regime change' in Tharbad, it took me half a week to set it all up in time for the event that saw it come into force. We also have to take into account that other players will be attempting some quests and so we have to make them ok to do again for new parties that come along during a session. This is very much the case at low level. At higher level, I do have plans for single shot quests (they run once per server session).

Now lets get back to things we can do, in relation to your comments. We can certainly make NPC's react to your actions more. We will work on that. We can commit more to making changes to the world in light of events that have taken place, e.g. the overthrow in tharbad. Another thing that I have wanted that would help with this is more personalisation. However, we need a much more active and official PCT team to do this, so I will see about giving the PCT more power and some modding tools with MERP UK resources.

We are working at the moment to finally get guilds to become a well recognised and central part of our community. We have never had a strong guild presence here, and their inclusion here will mean that some things in the world will have to evolve following any actions they take - this can only be a good thing.

It is certainly our intention to make high and low level interaction more common and the different places less elusive and more easier to get to. On an adventuring and combat level, combining high and low levels will cause problems. We often seek to challenge people; if there is a vastly lower level character in a party, they are liable to die very often. We don't want these players to get a bad impression of the game. On a social level, we always welcome interaction between all characters and commit a lot of time to make this more so.

That about concludes what I have to say in response to your post. There is a lot more we can do, and I will do my best to see that it happens, but im going to need a lot of players support and assitance with doing it, particularly the PCT which needs to gather and organise. Im starting to have a little less time for working on all this. Fear not though - I shall always be working on something, but i have made a lot of progress following treatment for my illness and sooner or later I will be getting my life back on track, meaning this project will become part time for me. So we must have a strong and active community helping to keep things running smoothly.

[Burin]

Richard, you have my thanks for your analysis of my over-long post. You also have my apology for having to take so many of the slings and arrows inspired by and due to the author.

I see many of the individuals whose abilities and rp'ing I have admired have also read the post, and that is flattering, indeed.
I think we are united in our enjoyment of the world that is, and will undoubtedly enjoy even more the world that is to be.

I missed any comments by those, like me, whose situation was addressed in the thread to which I thought I was contributing--the new players. All, I think, who commented were among the "establishment," who know much more about what was desired and what may be accomplished and what is impossible.

From this (missing) point of view, what has been done is "impossible," in the sense that before I joined you I would have said that creating this world starting with the NWN game could not be done. Having done the impossible, your actions, O Valar, testify against you when you claim that certain changes are impossible. Yet shall I abide by your verdict, as that condition was part of our agreement. Please allow me a last faint voice of disagreement with a few of the points raised in all the very fair and informative comments, directed mostly at Richard:

Do not allow yourselves to think you are THE Tolkien experts, as the "this is Tolkien's world, not the player's ," sort of comment might indicate. I think I can claim as much insight into Tolkien's world as most, and I would contest vigorously any interpretation that might say that the "great man" theory of history is at work there. Of course Aragorn and Gandalf are "great," but one of the basic points of the viewpoint expressed in Tolkien's works (and not coincidently in Christianity) is that it is the humble who really matter. Those hobbits (models of the small and unimportant) who "meddled in the affairs of the great" saved that world. The Tristas--no slight to her greatness-- of YOUR world are more effective in making it live than the highest-level fighter or mage. So the actions of newcomers might well change the world. And change it in a way that does not undo previous work, but uses it as a stage for new scripted events that are as interesting and challenging as the old. The old would perforce be lost, alas, along with the great and humble deeds of the past.

One final comment--it is odd that many are concerned about the newcomers who would be denied the pleasure of the no-longer-available scripted events, but at the same time admit the superiority of the DM-sponsored events, which surely could never possibly become the "norm" for game-play! Are those excellent events not lost in the past of the game world, or can newcomers replay them, too?

Food for thought only, not controversy, I hope.

Burin

postscript: Snce I started to write this posting and NOW, I have read Kev's (pardon my presumptuous use of the familiar nickname) perceptive comment, and I now see that my comments were fully understood and taken into appropriate account by the Valar. Thank you.

[ghost81]

DM Events tend to be one shots, but can be fairly frequent. Lorien did one recntly for new players - just before you started I believe. The thing with the DM events is that a lot of them cannot be relived, as they tend to be almost spur of the moment based by who is online and what they are up to.

In the old days many a DM-led raid was inspired by a bunch of Dwarves sitting around drinking in the Cracked Anvil, discussing who needed to be dealt with. An online DM would sieze on one of the ideas, a visit from a NPC would follow and all carnage would ensue.

So DM eevnts as a happening I would say are not lost in the4 past of the world, but individual events do tend to be one shot, non-repeatable events.

[Azmar]

The World...the place we know and love, yet remains the same....(unless a DM adds a little flavour).

It is obvious that unless the server is DM'd 24 X 7 it will remain as is. There would be far too much re-writing and other scripting stuff (that I personally) know nothing about, to host a reliable, dynamically changing world.

So we sometimes rely on the DM's to spice it up. This is always fun (even if you get beaten senseless) and I appreciate all efforts by them. In turn this generates better RP as these things are always talked about...well after all, it is news of happenings in the World.
I and others could list many events or interactions by DMs to make even travelling more enjoyable...most of the time these actions go unackowledged.

IMHO if you want the World to dynamically reflect the actions of the players, then this is how I would see it:

Constant incursions in areas would provoke

Reinforcements perhaps?
Increased patrols near that area?

If you really want player actions to be reflected in the World, showing a shift in power etc, then how about random patrols (good or evil) being dropped into locations.

The problem with this though would be:

Someone wanders into a new area and gets killed by the DM placed patrol...well thats life when you wander alone in this World.

I got this idea from a DM (Araw I think, though whoever it was ...A big Thumbs up!) after Vladnak and Rasheron thought it would be a good idea to Kill a few Rohirrim in Dunharrow. Normally I would give ourselves a pretty good chance of victory, as these soldiers scare easy and lack co-ordinated attacking skills.
After a fews minutes of tough bloody combat...Vladnak was seen, heavily wounded, dragging the limp body of Rasheron from the area.
The Rohirrim where expecting this, and had improved their defenses and tactics.
Lesson learnt methinks...

These are just thoughts.....

Azmar

[Burin]

If I understand his postings correctly, RichardW and I were not looking see a settlement razed the first time it is attacked, but perhaps the 100th time, some minor functionary in a pct whose job it was to watch over a few of the lowest-level quest sites could replace the area or three that comprise the quest with an area with the same basic terrain, but ruins in place of the buildings and other structures, spiced up by some hidden treasures, undead creatures, wandering animals/beasts, ond scouting parties of prospective settlers looking for a new home. Such an area could be replaced after a month or so with a "new" settlement strongly resembling the old one, with perhaps settlers of a different type. Might this be the level of change that would make "history" look more recognizable, and still be "manageable"?

[DM_Kev]

Thats partly true, but if something is happening often enough to get our attention, we will make changes. Tharbad is one good example.

Given time, when less of our resources are being spent on completing the Middle Earth map, we will devote more time to shaping the world around players actions.

Lorien is going to be added in a matter of days now. The complete Shire and west is due soon too.

I know 40 levels are available, but I do not plan to cater for level 40 characters. I will stop making more challenging content at around levels 28-30. Levels will NOT be capped though. Players will be able to level to 40, but it will be very slow after 28 or so, as there wont really be any good rewards, kill xp wise. That doesnt stop characters still advancing through rp, crafting, quest xp and schemes to be introduced at a later time.

Reasoning behind the above statement is partly to do with a number of things; the power of characters in the world for one. No character will become god-like; it was our intention from the beginning to make characters respect the powers that be and not feel they are untouchable, whilst still being heroes if that is their chosen path.

I also feel that with the slow advancement we have in later levels (its taken 6 months for our first epic character to emerge), we would really struggle to produce any new challenges for high epics without turning their quests into overpowered uber fests, which would detract from the middle earth theme.

[DM_Kev]

Good idea. *Takes note*

Evil have the advantage of the Dol Guldur starting point being an army base, to all intents and purposes. So potential jobs are right in front of them when they start. Good characters could use some more direction or at least make quests more obvious.