Player Support Questions Thread

[ghost81]

So here it is - a thread to ask questions about Tolkien's world races etc. Those of us who almost religiously read all Tolkien source books we can get hold of will do our best to give you clear and detailed answers - although a quick disclaimer in advance:

This will be our spin on information provided in various Toliien sources, not an absolute definitive answer - however if it comes from one of the DM's or Admin team its probably best to take this as the truth as far as the server is concerned for now.

[morez]

Hurray 1st:

Ok what kind of species is Tom Bombadil?
A Maia, a creature like Ungolianth (not sure if this is written right), that comes from ah nowhere, or maybe Illuvatar himself disguised?
Definately he is older than Arda. But if he isnt a Maia, what is he then?

[DM_Olórin]

A very good question, to which there is absolutely no single safe answer. Take a look at his page on the Encyclopaedia of Arda, it has a summary of the most popular theories.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp?url=http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html

Tom describes himself as both oldest and fatherless, and the first being to be on arda. Before the dark lord came he says. That would suggest that he was there before Melkor, who got there ahead of Manwe and Varda, set foot upon the world. But they were the first and not Tom. He surely isnt a maiar for the ring has NO effect on him what so ever, gandalf, saruman and sauron of course were profoundly effected by it albeit in different ways, but Tom treats it as thought it was a toy. And Frodo has NO reticence in handing it to him as if he KNOWS instinctively that the Ring cannot effect Tom.

Tom may be a strange embodiment of one of the Valar, but the first and Fatherless remark contradicts this. Eru was the father of the valar and they were his children. Perhaps Tom is an aspect of Eru himself. It would explain his omnipotence (within his bounds). Except Tolkien himself denies that there is any embodiment of an Almighty God (of any kind) in Middle Earth. That being the cae and he should know, then Tom cant be him.

Tom may be an uncategorizable sprit being and i rather like the idea that there are things in ME that are nicely inexplicable. In Lost Tales there are a multitude of Fae Races named as having entered the world but now dwell seperate from it but watch and laugh much at it, Tom fits that mould rather well as his mischievios nature and quirky appearance. I see him as Tolkiens take on the mythical Fairie folk of yore, Perhaps the ring doesnt effect him because he is not of the world in any way that the ring can get a handle on and push the right buttons to manipulate.

He may even be an embodiment of the Land itself, concentrated by depletion of the One Forest into the tiny green enclave on the border of Breeland and taken a humanlike form for purposes of its own. Goldberry his wife seems to be a waternymph of some kind or a half-waternymph, her mother being called Riverwoman, i expect a spirit of the Withywindle River. Perhaps the pair are physical extentions of elemental forces beyond the normal scope of even the maiar or valar, perhaps they are parts of a spirit that is Endor itself, the world and everything in it.

Who knows... check out that link its got plenty of detailed discussion and argument on the subject.

At the bottom of that page there are a couple of external links to other material. Quite interesting if ye like that sort of thing

*The old man in Grey bows and walks away humming* - "Hey ho merry do...."

[ghost81]

Yeah, my personal favourite take on Tom Bombadil has always been him being the very living embodiment of the land, as it fits much of whta he says of himself - he was the first and will be the last, after all other life has past on only then will he leave. It would also fit him having been there in the dark and having seen the stars arrive and indeed having witnessed the arrival of the 'dark lord'.

[ghost81]

Actually a while back a fellow player asked me for more information on Gondor. So here is the first installment.

Gondor was one of the Dunedain kingdoms of Middle Earth, founded by Elendil in Second Age 3220, it was committed by him to hte joint rule of his sons Isildur and Anarien. At the height of its power (circa Third Age 1100) Gondor extended north to Celebrant, east to the Sea of Rhun, south to the River Harnen (southern Ephel Duath) inland and Umbar on the coast, and west to Gwathlo (river flowing south-west from Tharbard, marking the boundary between Minhiriath and Enedwaith. In addition, various realms to the east and south were tributary states. The chief cities of Gondor at its height were Osgiliath, Minas Arnor (tower of the sun), Minas Ithil (tower of the moon), Dol Amroth, and Pelargir.

(more to follow)

[ghost81]

From its founding Gondor was always under attack from Sauron or his allies in Rhun, Harad or Umbar. Ithilien was invaded a number of times, beginning in Second Age 3429 until in Third Age 2002 Minas Ithil was taken by the Nazgul and held until the end of The War of the Ring. During the Age Gondor suffered 3 great evils, the Kin-strife, the Great Plague and invasions of Wain Riders (details of these to follow). These difficulties combined with the degeneration of the Dunedain sapped Gondor's strength. decreased her population, and indeed dulled her vigilance.

After the death of Elendil in Second Age 3441, Gondor was ruled by the line of Anarion (which I've spelt correctly this time) until it failed in Third Age 2050. Gondor remained without a King until the return of Elessar (Aragorn) in Third Age 3019, in this period it was governed by the Ruling Stewards.

Gondor was a feudal kingdom. Originally the two greatest fiefs, the royal fiefs of Ithilien (Isildur) and Anorien (Anarion) were of equal rank, but after the removal of Isildur to Arnor and the mov ing of the capital from Osgiliath to Minas Arnorn, Anorien became more important than Ithilien.

Also called the South-Kingdom (in opposition to Arnor -the North Kingdom). Called Stonelending and Stoningland by the Rohirrim.

[ghost81]

The Kin-strife (Third Age 1432 - 1448 )

The great civilwar of Gondor. This war resulted from the belief of some of the Dunedain of Gondor that Eldacar was unfit to rule because he was not of pure Dunedain blood. However it stemmed ultimately form the dicontent of some of the royal family over the favour shown to the Northmen by Eldacar's father Valacar. There had been rebellion in Southern Gondor beforehand, but on Eldacar's ascension to the throne there was widespread warfare. The rebels, led by the Captain of the Ships, Castamir, besieged Osgiliath. In 1437 Eldacar fled to his mothers kin in Rhovanion and Osgiliath was burnt and its Palantir lost. Castamir captured Eldacar's son Ornendil, had him put to death and was then made King. Castamir was cruel and thought only of the navy, and was soon disliked in the inland areas of Gondor. In 1447, after 10 years of exile, Eldacar returned to Gondor at the head of an army of Northmen. He also recieved much support from the folk of Calenardhon, Ithilien, and Anorien. He faced and slew Castamir at the Battle of the Crossings of Erui. The remaining rebels were besieged in Pelagrir, and in 1448 they took the entire fleet of Gondor and fled to Umbar. They rapidly degenerated into Corsirs who troubled Gondor's coasts for many generations.


The Great Plauge (Third Age 1636 - 1637)

A plague rgar swept across Middle Earth from the south-east. Harad, and possibly Rhun as well, suffered greatly. Gondor was next hit by the plague, and was devastated. King Telemnar, all his children, and the White Tree died. Osgiliath was especially hard hit, and its onhabitants that survived by fleeing never returned. As a result of the plague the guard on Mordor was discontinued.


Invasions of the Wainriders (Third Age 1856 - 1944)

The Wainriders were an Easterling people or confedaracy. They first ventured west of the Sea of Rhun in Third Age 1851. Howver in 1856, stirred up by Sauron they attacked Gondor, taking and enslaving Rhovanion, and killing King Narmacil II. In 1899 the enslaved Northmen of Rhovanion revolted against the Wainriders and Gondor, led by King Calemhitar took advantage of this to defeat them in a battle on Dagorland. However 50 years later the Wainriders had recovered their strength and in 1944, allied with Men of Khand and Near Harad, launched a two prong assualt on Gondor from the east and south. Although the NOrthern Wainrider army defeated the Northern Army of Gondor and King Ondoher and both his sons, Earnil defeated the southern invasion force, then rushed his army north and crushed the main Wainrider force in the Battle of the Camp. The Wainriders were totally destroyed.

[Nine Inch Nail]

Just wondering. Have there ever been any evil women in JRR's mythology? Any women of Black Numenorean origin?

[DM_Olórin]

evil females...

Shelob, Ungoliant, Thuringwethil...

[Nine Inch Nail]

:) Did I say Black Numenorean ?

Females *shivers*
Olorin I think you should sit for a bit in a correctional facility *grins*

I'm just going to bed and you're giving me nightmares. Naa, but seriously any woman of BN origin in JRR's myths? Are there any charismatic BN female characters in the books?

[ghost81]

The majority of Tolkiens books are very much based on the histories of the races of Middle Earth. Even in hte books he published about Middle Earth himself - The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, there are very few female characters on the whole - most of whom are female hobbits, plus of course Arwen, Galadriel and Iorweth (from Minas Tirith). The other books were published after his death (even the Silmarillion) and have mainly been compiled from drafts, notes and letters where Tolkien was describing Middle Earth or various aspects of it. From memory I can't think of any female BN's mentioned - at the same time very few BN's are named at all.

Indeed most of Tolkiens writings are concerned with the West of the World - the now sunken far west took up a lot of his writings, and the areas we see of the West in the Lord of the Rings (and their histories) seem to take up a lot of the other writing.

For example it is known that 5 Istari were sent into Middle Earth - 3 of whom we know various amounts about - Gandalf, Saruman and Radaghast, the other two were Blue - sometimes named, but other than a brief mention in one of tolkiens letters (see below) the lands they entered and what happened to them is never really investigated.

1954 'the essay on the Istari' - Unfinished Tales

p.504
'Now the White messenger in later days became known among elves as Curunir, the Man of Craft, in the tongues of Northern Men Saruman; but that was after he returned from his many journeys and came into the realm of Gondor and there abode. Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards'' for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants is not known.' Footnote

Footnote 3 p.518
1958 in a letter
'I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to "enemy-occupied" lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders of secret cults and "magic" traditionsthat outlasted the fall of Sauron.'

[ghost81]

The history of the Black Numenorean race mirrors in many ways though the fall of the Dunedain of Gondor. I don't have my books in front of me right now. But from the way Tolkien's writings of the Black Numenoreans speak of the race, when first they became a power in their own right they were mighty, and lords over the lands of the south/east. However, much like the Dunedain of Gondor, they were limited in number and interbred with the lesser races, meaning that by the time of the War of the Ring there were few, if any pure-blood black numenoreans remaining.

The notable exception to this of course is The Mouth of Sauron, however he was a special case, granted powers and extraordinary longlife by Sauron.

[DM_Olórin]

Despite their rarity, and I think that ghost is spot on with that, there is no reason that a southerner, primarily of Umbar, might claim such a noble (notorious?) heritage. Wether they are high-born nobles or lowly thralls there is no reason that they couldnt claim to be a member of some ancient bloodline.

Perhaps by way of many an illigitimate coupling, watered down over the ages, polluted by lesser races like the Haradrim or Variags, but with a trace of the blood of Numenor in their veins none the less, inspiring them to the greatness of their forgotten forebears, and aspirations of lordship.

[misterroboto2]

How are haradrims "inferior"? Tolkien is starting to sound like a eugenist to me...

[DM Curumo]

The Numenorians were a long lived (nearly 3 times that of a normal man) and very noble race that had an air of arrogance. For they have been around as a strong power throughout from the first age to the second age and beyond. At the beginning of the second age, most of the numenorians sailed west with the elves but some stayed.

The haradrim were a bunch of savages with a tribal nature and a bad temper and a loving of battle. But they were classified as 'true' men.

Now you tell me which is 'inferior'

[DM_Olórin]

The Black Numenoreans came from the same original race of High Men as the Dunedain. The Edain ARE a superior race of Men. In some regards they fall somewhere between Common Men and Elves. All other races of Men are inferior to them physically and spiritually.

Basically of you make an Edain Human characater, dont give them crappy CHA. :)

Tokien is not some sort of gene purist, its just the nature of the race. Is it therefore unfair to say Elves are not superior also simply beacause they are a race distinct from all men.

Thats not to say that a Black Numenorean wouldnt have issues about racial purity in their RP. If there was ever a race in Middle Earth that fitted such, its them.

[Nine Inch Nail]

I think playing on the side of evil involves a lot of racial prejudice especially if you're Black Numenorean. There's lot more camaraderie on the side of the good but the evil side involves a bit of bullying and rp-ed racial prejudice sometimes.

I generally strive to avoid it but sometimes it represents the world and the origins of my character better so I wouldn't be truly myself if I didn't say something nasty about lower races.

Forgive me and my character - Rakhier - if you were (at some point) a victim of my character's racist joke (or a cynical remark). It's strictly IC and doesn't relate to your person (player).

[misterroboto2]

Haha no, no one has made insults to me personally. A low-leveled black numenorian was bragging about how he was "superior" and how little he thought of other races. That kinda pushed on my character's buttons and got her mad. The frustrating part is that even though she could have made him take back his words in one hit but wasn't able to because: A) we were in Dol Guldur where fighting is "illegal" and B) it would have felt wrong to kill a character that was so weak.

One word of advice I'd have to give black numenorians is to at least wait until you're no longer a thrall to flaunt their superiority. Some people like to give thralls lessons in humility :P.

AFAIK, the RP of the Black Numenorian character was flawless, I'm the one who didn't know how to react since racial superiority goes against my RL core values.

[Nine Inch Nail]

Manifesting your racial superiority has got nothing to do with PVP combat to begin with misterroboto2. There are 20000 alternatives to PvP whatever the reason.
And racial superiority as represented in Tolkien's books is something very common (on the side of evil) but let's make it as mild and as soft as we can here.

Your character as an Easterling would generally dislike orcs and goblins as I think all other races would even those allied with them.

[misterroboto2]

Originally posted by Nine Inch Nail
Manifesting your racial superiority has got nothing to do with PVP combat to begin with misterroboto2. There are 20000 alternatives to PvP whatever the reason.
And racial superiority as represented in Tolkien's books is something very common (on the side of evil) but let's make it as mild and as soft as we can here.

Your character as an Easterling would generally dislike orcs and goblins as I think all other races would even those allied with them.

I'd sincerely love to know what are thse alternatives. You see, I _don't_ want unnecessary PVP. I only duel in formal occasions (such as Bereval's tournament) or when the other character is _really_ pushing it (a certain wizard comes to mind ;) ). nevertheless, there _should_ be some way to show those thralls who's boss, no?

[DM_Kev]

Agreed ;)

[DM_Olórin]

Originally posted by DM_Kev
Agreed ;)
dont go getting any ideas you...:frown:

[Ptolomy]

Alternative #1:

A well RPed flogging with a whip can show someone who's boss without shedding too much blood :)

[feodore]

I was wondering about the Petty Dwarves. Is their line still alive at this point of time in Middle Earth? I was thinking along the lines of a character that's slightly in awe of real dwarves and who hates elves, especially the Sindar, quite a bit more than your everyday dwarf.

[ghost81]

From memory they all died out circa 500 First Age. This said I do not have my sources in front of me, but when I get home later today (approx 22:30 GMT) I will look through my source books and hopefully give you a fuller answer.

[DM Curumo]

"The Petty Dwarves:

The eldar did not at first recognise them as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. They only became aware of their existence indeed when they attacked the eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places. The Eldar therefore thought they were a kind of cunning two legged animals living in caves, and they called them Levain tad-dail, or simply Tad-dail, and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the acquantance of the Naugrim, the Tad-dail were recognised as a variety of dwarves and were left alone. They were then few of them surviving, and they were very wary, and too fearful to attack any Elf, unless their hiding places were approached too nearly. the Sindar gave them the names Nogotheg 'Dwarf-let', or Nogoth niben 'Petty Dwarf'.

The great dwarves despisesd the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven out of the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious. But they still acknowledged their kinship and resented any injuries done to them. Indeed it was one of their grievances against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there. The grievances set aside, when treaties were made between the Dwarves and the Sindar, in consideration of the plea that the Petty-dwarves had never declared themselves to the Eldar, nor presented their claims to land or habitations, but had at once attacked the newcomers in darkness and ambush. But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mim, the only Petty-dwarf who plated a memorable part in the Annals of Beleriand."

The War of the Jewels (page 388-389) by Christopher Tolkein


By the time of the War of the Jewels, after the return of the Ñoldor, the Petty-dwarves had nearly died out. The last remnant of their people were Mîm and his two sons, who lived at Amon Rûdh

[feodore]

That clears things up about the petty dwarves. Thanks.

[feodore]

Given the fact that the world was recreated in the second age (I think!), would a character (a common person not the Maia) have knowledge of the first age? Would the collective memory of Middle Earth people (common people again) stretch back to an age before the recreation?

[ghost81]

The world wasn't recreated in the second age. Admittedly a big chunk of it fell into the sea (Beleriand). However the same races lived there - the same lines of men, dwarves and elves.

Where men's memories have grown ever shorter then no they wouldn't know much of the first age, but many of the elves will have lived through it, and the Dwarves would no much of their own histories.

[DM_Kev]

A dwarf never forgets :P