View Full Version : The nature of the Valar
Just a fun question which will also hopefully help me understand LOTR a bit more and “possibly” help with rp.
So are they gods or are they angels? Or do they not fall in either category? It is clear that Eru is a god but the Valar, hmmm I don’t know. What was the good professor playin at?
DM_Olórin
05-12-2005, 17:24
Angels, not gods. That much is certain. I believe Tolkien said something like that in a letter to one of his corresponants. Think of them as beings of a higher order than the elves in middle earth terms, only far older and wiser and much more powerful.
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This reminds me of how the PCT thread I started ages ago. Some players were runnin' around quoting Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance (Krynn) deities, or even the Bible in some cases. So a little thread called: "The Valar - The Powers of Arda" began. It took off in a big way and Kev made it official... now we have the PCT - Player Content Team thread...
*Info on the Valar here folks - and many other things Tolkien besides*
http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=302337
Good idea Snarf to bump this thread up - some lively debate would be preferable to all the angry banter of late. :)
*The old man opens a battered tome and leafs through the pages chuckling at the woodcut of the anatomically incorrect Hobbit...*
In that case is it "ethical" for these angels to have allowed themselves to be called gods (at least by men) when they were not and more importantly why did Eru allow this to happen?
Why allow a falsehood to grow?
Argon Balros
05-12-2005, 18:26
does anyone call them gods?
DM_Olórin
05-12-2005, 18:40
Its not technically a falsehood.
They are the "Powers of Arda", Eru their maker doesnt call himself a god, nor do they, he is simply "the One", he simply is Eru Illuvatar and the Valar are his children. If men choose to give thanks to Orome for a good hunt so that their children have meat to eat or Yavanna or Vana for a fruitful harvest, or Orome or Osse for surviving a storm at sea, so be it.
The Valar do not profit from the belief or the worship, other than perhaps to feel joy that the wise man/woman saw the hand of the Valar in their good fortune and had grown a little in the understanding of the world and the forces within it, or in the twarting of some great evil, but nor do they interfere without good reason.
Men may worship a river or a mountain or the sky as a god. It is in the way of Men to seek understanding of their place in the world and to look to others higher than they to explain matters to them. They give many names to these "higher ones" that we may consider "gods" and most if not all will probably embody some aspect that is also embodied by one or other of the Vlar and Maiar, that is the nature of the Ainur, to reflect some aspect of the world or the stuff from which it is made i think.
The Valar demand nothing in the way of worship or tribute. If Men call them gods and prostrate themselves in front of idols that is their affair and no choice forced upon them by any save Melkor in the ancient times and Sauron by fear of his wrath now.
*Olorin wonders where the hell all that philosophical guff just came from*
LieutLaww
05-12-2005, 18:55
Bwuahahaha Bow before me foolish Mortals
Every bit as interesting (at least to me):
If a vision of all of the history of Arda had once unfolded (as told, I think, in the Ainulindale), and it was left to the Valar to help make that history come to pass with Arda's creation... how delicately they must have chosen their interactions with the creation...
Aside from the initial construction, and their further balancing of Melkor's various efforts to disrupt it, it seems like they prefer to just let events unfold over the course of time as Iluvatar had revealed them--perhaps explaining their disinterest, even in making adjustments for VERY troublesome Maiar like Sauron.
The tricky play between their early active engagement and their later more passive trust is an interesting motif by JRRT, if it speaks to the paradoxes between that which is timeless and eternal, and that which finds its expression in history.
*At this point, Trista wakes up from her altogether confusing philosophical dream, nibbles on a scone on the nightstand left just for such occasions, and then slips back into slumber for a little longer.*
DM_Olórin
05-12-2005, 19:12
Originally posted by LieutLaww
Bwuahahaha Bow before me foolish Mortals
Oh do be quiet you... and what are you doing out of your void? Back with you, you foul emmanation you...! Back I say...!
LieutLaww
05-12-2005, 19:44
Never i will never go quietly, i shall corrupt and darken any who are foolish enough to be trapped by power and glory, these i shall ensnare and use as a presence in your world to continue my dark plans
An interesting question Snarfel and one with no clear answer, perhaps as it should be.
This is what the old I.C.E. material on elves says about their spiritual relationship with the world and its powers. Perhaps not authoritative but, as Tolkein was himself vague in this area, I think there's a little scope for different interpretations:
"Religion in any organised sense was unknown to the elves, especially the Eldar, who knew the Valar more as esteemed and revered teachers than actual dieties. Virtually all elves worshipped Eru Iluvatar (Quenya "The One") as the creator of all things: the earth, the Valar, elves and men. (Dwarves, created by Aule, are thought of differently.) In this way they saw themselves on equal, though perhaps different, standing with all other beings. Worship of Eru was very informal, however, involving no specific temple or other structure more elaborate than an open garden. The elves worshipped Eru for the beauty of his creation. They celebrated the light of the stars or the sound of falling water, the sweetness of fruit or the luminescence of gems from deep within the earth. With song they rejoiced in the magnificence of Ea, for music was the Essence of Arda."
The relationship of the Eldar with the Valar is obviously unique but I think this passage illustrate the point made above by Olorin. That is that "worship" in middle earth would have been similar to the animist worship of elemental forces visible in the physical world which we find in all the early cultures of our own history that interested Tolkein so much.
*SNarfel decides to throw a few more sticks in to the fire, just small ones for now. Hoping to provide some fodder to the villains in our little game*
Seems to me that for all the claim of the Valar to be loving and caring they are cold beings at heart and of no free will. They simply bend to the will and vim of Eru without question.
The main Valar that tried to exercise any free will was made an outcast and forced in to the role of a villain for daring to exercise the power given to him in the way he saw fit. Yet the other Valar took no action even though they thought he did wrong. Finally, when they do decide to act it is only because the children of Eru are threatened i.e. they still are not actually exercising any free will on there own part but doing what they believe is expected of them by Eru, that being to save his children.
The one other Valar who exercise his free will and creates the dwarves is punished by Eru himself by being told that Eru will not suffer the awakening of the dwarves before his own children. So much for Eru’s morality and ethics.
As for the Valar, I don’t believe them to have any ethics what so ever. They have offered themselves in to subjugation to Eru and so long as the will of Eru is done they could hardly care less, call them fanatics in that sense if you will. Ultimately I see no difference in the moralities Melkor and Eru. On the one hand you have a being who demands lordship over Arda by force. On the other hand you have the being who created everything, gave free will to the Valar and then when one of them chose a different tune from the greater music Eru took that free will away by telling him “do what you want, in the end your music will become part of mine and my will be done”.
Isn’t that the ultimate deceit and lie, to give a being free will and then to tell him, “no do it my way or regardless it will still be done my way!” And if things will turn out the way he plans anyway, then yet another deceit. The Valar, the elves, the men, none of them really have any free will do they, because Eru has planned it such that regardless of their actions it is going to turn out as he has wished it to. If that is the case, then is not worship, giving thanks (call it what you will) something that he has always wanted and when Melkor wants some of it himself he is called evil. Hardly fair is it!
Isn’t that the ultimate deceit and lie, to give a being free will and then to tell him, “no do it my way or regardless it will still be done my way!” And if things will turn out the way he plans anyway, then yet another deceit. The Valar, the elves, the men, none of them really have any free will do they, because Eru has planned it such that regardless of their actions it is going to turn out as he has wished it to. If that is the case, then is not worship, giving thanks (call it what you will) something that he has always wanted and when Melkor wants some of it himself he is called evil. Hardly fair is it!
I think one should first decide what you mean by "free will". As I understand it, free will is not a basic philosophy, it is defined by rules. Thus, free will is the option to either follow the rules or disregard the rules. One can either do good or evil, or be lawful or chaotic, or decide to love or hate, a short list of the basic philosophies, free will is the ability to choose between them.
Eru has set into motion his creation and set forth the rules for it's existence. Then he gives free will for his creation to either follow the rules he set forth or disregard them. Those that follow them find peace and contentment, those that disregard them (or break those rules) find strife and punishment.
It would be rather difficult to understand what Eru's full plan for Ea is, I don't think JRRT could have fully understood it either, thus he made it rather vague. When you talk about deceits and lies and that it's hardly fair, well, it isn't, it's what Eru created and he set forth the rules. But underneath it all there is still free will to choose between the plan/rules Eru made or to disreguard them.
clone number 3
06-12-2005, 08:33
*scratches his arse and wonders when we're going to go and kill things*........:P
Originally posted by clone number 3
*scratches his arse and wonders when we're going to go and kill things*........:P
All in good time Sir, can’t you see I’m laying the groundwork for the evil characters you mentioned ;-)
“But underneath it all there is still free will to choose between the plan/rules Eru made or to disreguard them.”
This just sums it up does it not. The con(ceit) is in this very sentence as ultimately Eru’s plan will come in to fruition regardless of “free will”. So really it doesn’t matter if there is free will or not, and if it does not matter, if something can not impact on the final result, then it may as well not exist. Thus free will is a falsehood, as is the so called freedom of the free peoples of Middle Earth.
Eru calls them his children, but really they are nothing more than slaves. At best Eru is a benevolent dictator. At worst, he is malevolent in the most cruellest of ways. He gives the concept of freedom to his creations, lets them suffer and fight countless wars thinking they are fighting for their freedom and all the time he knows that their acts are futile and the outcome is going to be as he ultimately wishes it. Makes Melkor look like a kitten.
DM_Olórin
06-12-2005, 14:21
The old man eyes the figure on the haywagon suspiciously....
Why had it pulled up in front of the Town Hall of Tharbad? Are those bulky shapes barrels of some sort under all that hay? What is that aroma of coal-tar in the air and why is the madly giggling driver trying desperately to strike a spark with his tinderbox with so much hay about? And what, when you got right down to it, is the matter with the fellow, feverish eyes, sickly, slack-jawed countenance and muttering in what was that?... Black Speech?...
"Melkorian Fundamentalist!", yells the Old Man, bearing the Town Hall guard to the ground as the haywagon, its flammable cargo, and its suicial occupant bloom into a vast chrysanthemum of orange flame, demolishing part of the stone portico and removing every pane, from every window in the district...
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Snarf - thats great stuff for scholars among the evils to use as argument to attempt to justify their opposition to the Valar, but best to bear in mind that they would have to be very careful who overheard such dogma.
Most of Sauron's followers, the warrior rank and file, would be woefully ignorant of the Lords of the West, Sauron desires obedient servants, not necessarily deep thinkers. He will do the thinking for them. Singularity, no choices other than serve or perish, one ring, one lord, one dominion over all the world... His.
What we are trying to do on the server is a bit difficult in some ways. Creating the setting for the Free, we have tonnes of referance material and well developed characters to populate our world, however we also need well developed enemies as well. We are also trying to create a place for evil heroes with their own goals and standards in Middle Earth. Tolkien only did that with Saruman and Sauron (and Melkor/Morgoth and Ungoliant long, long ago) but no real credence is given to their soldiers, captains and servants. Even the Nazgul are not developed as characters beyond figures of pure dread. We learn a little about the history of the Witchking, but like the rest of them, he is tied solely to the One Ring and his master, beyond that he has no goal or existance, other than to obey and to serve. The Mouth of Sauron is also fairly ambiguous other than that he has been promised power and dominion under Saurons rule if he serves. He appears closer to a mortal man than a supernatural being (but that is also not entirely clear). Sauron himself is a vast and awful intellect without shape or form and is hard to identify with for that very reason. Tolkien did that deliberately i think to make the Dark Lord a figure of Unknowable Terror in this incarnation. In the past he was more akin to the other Maiar, being able to take pleasing form and go among the folk of Numenor spreading deciet. In the 3rd Age only Saruman had an identifiable humanistic character, had clear goals and played powergames, some subtle, others less so, to strive to attain them.
What Snarf has posted is very interesting from the point of view that we dont really have reference material in LORT for how an independant evil character on the side of the Enemy might feel and think, what tales he was raised with that brought him to the dark side, etc. Good stuff... Just dont blow up any haycarts :D
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Disclaimer: Please note this is in no what intended to allude to recent tragic ebvents in the real world nor alienate anyone in any shape or form. it is purely imaginary. Thank you
Aye DM Olorin, quite understand what your saying and in no way was I suggesting that any evil character would have this much knowledge or even think exactly along these lines with whatever knowledge they could justifiably have.
Just chucking some ideas out there for ingame rp debates between good and evils. There is a cold war going on in the time setting we find our play in and I think some level of phsychological warfare and propoganda is called for. Jonaline amongest others used to do this (although covertly) and I think it is time it was revived and came a bit more in to the open.
"Man" and the Tharbad mayor's activities are ripe for this sort of thing. Those do gooder elfs, do they realy have the best interests of Middle Earth at heart or are they just trying to keep mortals under the thumb? Look how they treat the dwarves. For that matter should a warrior race like the dwarves be trusted? The Knights of Gondor, they seem to be growing in force and showing up everywhere! Why this sudden increase in military activity from Gondor? The Rohirrim realy should keep a closer eye on their powerful "ally". Get my drift:naughty:
*Jonalin looks long and hard at Snarfel*
Have you been reading my mind and stealing my punch lines? I have been preaching this sort of thing for a while now, not that everyone might of noticed of course
Although the events of the first and second ages may not be well known, The Silmarillion is clear on that they are known by those interested in such and are often sung of in the songs of the Eldar. What do the learned members of the Dev Team and player community think of allowing player characters who are primarily “scholars” to be allowed considerably greater leeway in employing such lore in RP. I envisage such players to be poor fighters and poor casters, high in intelligence and wisdom. They could accompany parties to do quests if they have some lore *taking care not to wreck the experience of course) offer or if they seek lore.
Such individuals would be rare and not many players may choose to create such characters but I see a lot of rp potential. If two or three such characters did come in to existence they could even orchestrate lore gatherings where they would share their “knowledge” and adventurers could provide them with their experiences in return. Of course it would be up to each individual to except if the lore provided was accurate and of use to them and there would certainly be cases when the lore would turn out inaccurate (these are not all knowing infallible beings after all).
This was brought on when a comment last night from Ivan got me thinking that perhaps players could rp researching aspects of a quest a little more before actually embarking on it.
DM_Gwaihir
13-12-2005, 23:13
The most detailed description of any kind of spiritual ritual that I've been able to find in Tolkein's work comes from his description of the island of Numenor in the Second Age.
"Near to the centre of the Mittalmar stood the tall mountain called Meneltarma, Pillar of the Heavens, sacred to the worship of Eru Iluvatar. .... the summit was flattened and depressed, and could contain a great multitude; but it remained untouched by hands throughout the history of Numenor. No building, no raised altar, not even a pile of undressed stones, ever stood there; and no other likeness of a temple did the Numenoreans possess in all the days of their grace, until the coming of Sauron. There no tool or weapon had ever been borne; and there none might speak any word, save the King only. Thrice only in each year the King spoke, offering prayer for the coming year at the Erukyerme in the first days of spring, praise of Eru Iluvatar at the Erulaitale in midsummer, and thanksgiving to him at the Eruhantale at the end of autumn. At these times the King ascended the mountain on foot followed by a great concourse of people, clad in white and garlanded but silent. At other times the people were free to climb to the summit alone or in company; but it is said that the silence was so great that even a stranger ignorant of Numenor and all its history, if he were transported thither, would not have dared to speak aloud. No bird ever came there, save only eagles. If anyone approached the summit, at once three eagles would appear and alight upon three rocks near to the western edge; but at the times of the Three Prayers they did not descend, remaining in the sky and hovering above the people. They were called the Witnesses of Manwe, and they were believed to be sent by him from Aman to keep watch upon the Holy Mountain and all upon the land."
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