View Full Version : Where do you feel development is most needed?
Aswell as responding to your ideas and reports, the player liasion team will also concentrate their work on areas where a lot of players feel the module needs more attention.
I have constructed as large a list as i can immediately think of. I'd be grateful if you'd take the time to place a maximum of THREE votes which must be on different categories.
Your written views are welcome as it will make the results more clear. This isn't meant to be a thread to debate where attention is needed - I want to know what each one of you thinks, we are not here to challenge that. When the results are all in, we will be able to see what exactly you, the players want and what we should rightfully do to the module in terms of future developments.
With the results, the player liasion team will prioritise your main areas of concern.
Thanks for your help.
Kyle Morgan
24-12-2005, 00:34
As one who mainly plays good characters i have little but no experience with the evil side of the mod.
These are my concerns:
After my chars reach past 12 levels, things tend to be frustrating to some point.
The Rohan quests and Entanglement seem the only (feasible) thing to do and it seems not even to be intended that we can do Rohan quests multiple times (token quests).
It appears to be impossible to finish the Minas Tirith armor quest (unnatural essence) without the help of a high level cleric or maybe mage. In the Erebor quests are very nasty deep Orcs and Ologs which wipe a whole party of 4 level 13-15 in 2-3 rounds (attacks of 46 and damage over 100).
Beyond the Eregion rift you have to fight 4 creatures (forgot the name) with soak -/20 high AC/AB and deadly spells.
Result is: The higher level i get, the more i get used to die. And rather than continuing to play i start a new character.
Two of my votes went to improving existing areas and other.
These are because I personelly would like to see the Shire completed. There are a few marked buildings with no interiors, areas pinned on the map that don't led anywhere, ruins and caves with no adventuring interiors or associated quests.
I would also like to see some of the smials available for purchase as PC houses. Some that could have named mailboxes or signposts, such as a smial for Miss Tanglefoot and some of the other longlived hobbits.
I see so much potential in the shire for those PC's who want to play hobbits.
I'd also like to see the addition of purchaseable rooms at Inns for resting. Seems rather strange that one has to always set up camp when there are Inns, but no rooms for rent.
These are just my opinions.
Kyle Morgan
24-12-2005, 01:13
Two maps on the shire are especially marvellous done and very inspiring, but yet lack something to do:
Westmarch: East road and Undertowers.
Very spooky! Are there story-ideas behind that or would you like to get some input about possible quests/NPCs/stories? Related or unrelated to Tolkien?
DM_Olórin
24-12-2005, 05:17
I have plans for the that part of the shire possibly involving quests from Mithlond or elsewhere. Ive plans to introduce underground areas beneath the Roundbarrow and the ruins.
Obviously many areas of the shire are under developed, this was intended to be where i would continue with future expansion. As it stands the shire is some 40+ areas. At the time of its inclusion i had been working on it solidly for months with barely a pause. After that i moved on to other areas. I will get back to the shire soon but theres only so much nuts n flowers a guy can take. :)
As to inns Hanna, i dont think you need to set up camp. Just select rest while inside the inn and you'll plonk down.
UTT2 does use a safe resting system for building interiors which are safe. The safe resting system completely ignores our resting system where food and camp is required.
All you need to do is click rest and your character should rest immediately.
I'm sure the odd interior has been forgotten, so please report interiors without safe resting to the player liasion team as this is a quick fix issue.
Silverleaf
24-12-2005, 12:33
I think all the server needs is more planned out events, both for goods and evils. Kev mentioned he was planning out some more events and battles for the future, and I can only look forward to them. :)
Originally posted by DM_Olórin
As to inns Hanna, i dont think you need to set up camp. Just select rest while inside the inn and you'll plonk down.
I guess I'm just a purest at heart, I find it mildly distracting while story telling or RPing to have PC's walk next to you and "rest" in the middle of the Inn. I want to say "Get a room". :cool:
Not a real problem, just a suggestion.
Silverleaf
24-12-2005, 15:50
Have a few ales first then, and when the alcohol gets you to take a seat. :P
I think the world can expand slowly, but before we get too big you need to consolidate what you have. So sort out bugs and spelling mistakes before adding too much more. That way you can enjoy what is already there, for remember the foundation needs to be solid before you put the roof on. (or some wise phrase like that)
Doomnair
25-12-2005, 15:09
I would say that the server needs developing in several ways (although I love it, cudos to both DMs/Builders and players). Some of these suggestions below:
1. More quests for mid/high lvl evil and good. (dont know about the good side, but as an evil it is very hard to get past lvl 8, both because of missing fellow evil players and because the only quest you can take beween 8-10 is so deadly).
2. No more expansion of the world, rather fix the areas that need fixing. Some suggestions are rooms in Tharbad (someone above mentioned it), fixing many of the transits that seems to go nowhere and have an overhaul in some of the areas built ( for example, in northern Mirkwood mountains there is a stone labyrinth that ends up in a door that cant be open).
3. Small things like poison for the players that wish to use it (I would also say trap components but it has already started to seep in :) ), lightweight throwing axes (those fifty axes weighs so much that everyone prefer to use a comp longbow, a thing I think Bioware missed in the game is that normally you pick them up after the fighting is done), alchemist fire and the like. Many things would work perfectly in a low magic world where things could be explained by chemistry rather than magic. Maybe even have an alchemist do the things for you (one alchemist on the evil side and one on the good) if you bring him the right things and pay him a small amount of gold.
4. The possibility for rogues to actually disarm traps. Ive often had a rogue with me in my party and it seems they cant disarm any of the traps around the server. As it is now, rogues seem to be good for their sneak attack but that is about it.
5. A tracking tool for rangers (seen it on another server and it worked great).
6. A bardic lore thing. On another server you could use Bardic lore on every map you entered to know some things about the area. A very nice feature (but it demands a lot from the builder team since they have to design a text for every area).
clone number 3
25-12-2005, 16:06
I have to say I like the sound of a number of Doomnair's suggestions above, though I have no idea how practical they are to implement.
I do believe that it is best to develop what we already have rather than expand the map further. There is no much point having a huge gameworld with nothing to do IMO!
So I would love to see more quests and the introduction of poisons, thief skills, etc and have a smaller, but richer world.
Doomnair
25-12-2005, 17:22
Thanks clone. I know that many of my suggestions are made from the dark side point of wiev, but since Im just playing one PC, I dont know much about the evil side. Someother suggestions Ive though of are the following:
7. Give the evil player a bit more freedom of movement in some places and maybe a bit less in some. As it is now, Many places are impossible to move in as an evil player. I know that this is made so because of the layout of MERP, but the evil areas seem a bit underdeveloped compared to the good areas. Ive tried to go (with a map taken from one of the books) to Mordor or other evil countrys, but every time I seem to run into high powered elven archers (that kills me in one or two arrows) or other goodish people. The good side can move more or less freely, as long as they avoid Dol Goldur and Umbar (at least I think this the case, since I havent been able to find Mordor).
8. A conversion smith in one of the eviil places (Umbar perhaps) so that evils dont have to go to Tharbad every time (and be chased out of there. I use a bit of metagaming when I wont conversion done, that is, enter Tharbad when I know the server is more or less empty).
9. Random spawning script. Ive often seen this on other servers, although I dont know how this works. The spawns spawn at the same place but there are different spawns and sometimes even under/over powered spawns. For example, when you enter Ice lands you may have the chance to encounter Frost wolves, polar bears and maybe even Frost giants.
Silverleaf
26-12-2005, 01:38
1. More quests for mid/high lvl evil and good. (dont know about the good side, but as an evil it is very hard to get past lvl 8, both because of missing fellow evil players and because the only quest you can take beween 8-10 is so deadly).
I think it's fine at the moment. Any more quests and you start to level too quickly, plus it becomes a solo world.
2. No more expansion of the world, rather fix the areas that need fixing. Some suggestions are rooms in Tharbad (someone above mentioned it), fixing many of the transits that seems to go nowhere and have an overhaul in some of the areas built ( for example, in northern Mirkwood mountains there is a stone labyrinth that ends up in a door that cant be open).
Most are alright, and I think the Liason thread Lorien started is exactly for things like that. They probably take 2 minutes to fix.
3. Small things like poison for the players that wish to use it (I would also say trap components but it has already started to seep in ), lightweight throwing axes (those fifty axes weighs so much that everyone prefer to use a comp longbow, a thing I think Bioware missed in the game is that normally you pick them up after the fighting is done), alchemist fire and the like. Many things would work perfectly in a low magic world where things could be explained by chemistry rather than magic. Maybe even have an alchemist do the things for you (one alchemist on the evil side and one on the good) if you bring him the right things and pay him a small amount of gold.
Axes are heavy, but indeed, for an NwN world throwing axes should weight a little less. Alchemists fire and acid flasks you should be able to buy in common places, but I would agree poisons should be more readily available.
4. The possibility for rogues to actually disarm traps. Ive often had a rogue with me in my party and it seems they cant disarm any of the traps around the server. As it is now, rogues seem to be good for their sneak attack but that is about it.
Just the other day a rogue disabled a trap for me. :) Not all traps are disableable, but being able to flag a trap helps tremendously.
5. A tracking tool for rangers (seen it on another server and it worked great).
Sounds good, as I have the highest level ranger on the server. :)
6. A bardic lore thing. On another server you could use Bardic lore on every map you entered to know some things about the area. A very nice feature (but it demands a lot from the builder team since they have to design a text for every area).
Errr... no. Bardic lore should stick to identification only.
7. Give the evil player a bit more freedom of movement in some places and maybe a bit less in some. As it is now, Many places are impossible to move in as an evil player. I know that this is made so because of the layout of MERP, but the evil areas seem a bit underdeveloped compared to the good areas. Ive tried to go (with a map taken from one of the books) to Mordor or other evil countrys, but every time I seem to run into high powered elven archers (that kills me in one or two arrows) or other goodish people. The good side can move more or less freely, as long as they avoid Dol Goldur and Umbar (at least I think this the case, since I havent been able to find Mordor).
I think it's fine for most evils, it's just orcs that have a problem. And really, it makes sense. If I was an elf archer and saw an orc walking down the road, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot. ;)
8. A conversion smith in one of the eviil places (Umbar perhaps) so that evils dont have to go to Tharbad every time (and be chased out of there. I use a bit of metagaming when I wont conversion done, that is, enter Tharbad when I know the server is more or less empty).
I think it would be best to get dropped off somewhere just outside Tharbad without having to go through Tharbad (not the Minhiriath Plain). But remember, orcs aren't welcome everywhere!
9. Random spawning script. Ive often seen this on other servers, although I dont know how this works. The spawns spawn at the same place but there are different spawns and sometimes even under/over powered spawns. For example, when you enter Ice lands you may have the chance to encounter Frost wolves, polar bears and maybe even Frost giants.
Good and bad... Low levelers wouldn't want to get smashed by a Frost Giant in Forochel. Perhaps this would be more possible in higher level areas, such as the Anorien Road or Mordor.
Re: Random spawning script suggested by Doomnair.
I really like this idea. But I would have it only work at night time. Get caught outside of town at night and you have a random chance of being attacked by a wild creature.
I would like to have a town/towns that could be attacked and taken control of by either faction. Whoever side controls the town will have its gaurds come there and protect it. If the opposing faction comes and kills all the guards, The control of the town changes hands and the new guards spawn in (Maybe have it that the faction that controls the towns gets slightly lower prices for items for sale through out the world due to better trade access).
Tolkien's story is about the battle between good and evil. PvP is the only way that PC gets to have any interaction with the opposing faction. The more the PC can have a impact on the world the more they will feel a part of it.
DM Curumo
26-12-2005, 19:12
In my opinin, the characters that are portrayed here, will not shake the world, but they might nudge it. The story will continue no matter what anyone else does. I also see evil being not an active force at this time, with Saruman still 'behaving' himself and the forces in Mordor not mobilised. So evil acts using sly and stealthy tactics.
As for a town to take, I do not know much about coding, but it might be difficult. You would have to go looking for our coding expert to answer that question. However things will I am sure continue to improve with lots of exciting things in the pipeline.
As for random spawns, again that would require coding so do not ask me. But I would be reserved about it, as people often walk the roads without having to worry about anything. If they went from a-b wandering what might attack them, we would not have the chance to role play and talk to each other.
Some of the best talks I have had have been on the road.
Damn, I keep forgetting about the strict guide lines, disregard previous posts.
I can see a lot of potential for development here and I will expand on my thoughts of the many excellent ideas here soon.
As things stand now, im not desperately looking for a coder/scripter. I thought we'd be in a big pickle at first but after long thought, things have proven to be plesantly simple as we already have the resources available to develop some truly awesome tools and adventures - The new Rohan quest will say it all. Watch this space! :)
I'm still short on time with the holidays and all that. Some great points raised here which I want to address though, so i'll be short and to the point:
1. More quests for mid/high lvl evil and good. (dont know about the good side, but as an evil it is very hard to get past lvl 8, both because of missing fellow evil players and because the only quest you can take beween 8-10 is so deadly).
Mid level goodies are quite well provided for here. They have a choice of quest progression paths whilst mid level evils are confined to a set quest progression path which doesn't always leave them well prepared for the higher level quests of Mordor. It would be my intention to eventually offer evil an alternative quest progression path to isengard (probably in Umbar) and add aditional quests to isengard so that characters leavethese areas ready for the new challenges offered in Mordor. An important part of offering a quality gaming experience here is giving players choice as this promotes the making of new characters and 'playing the game again', so to speak.
2. No more expansion of the world, rather fix the areas that need fixing. Some suggestions are rooms in Tharbad (someone above mentioned it), fixing many of the transits that seems to go nowhere and have an overhaul in some of the areas built ( for example, in northern Mirkwood mountains there is a stone labyrinth that ends up in a door that cant be open).
This is certainly what I'm intending for the time being. New areas will of course be developed, but im very keen to see the world enriched as much as possible, with every area having some sort role and providing activity, from something as simple as an npc responding with a greeting, to a complex pitched battle with wave upon wave of attackers. We need to crush all the bugs and mistakes in the module and vastly increase the activity in areas of the world. Areas should immerse players more and the npcs need to react to players more and present more of their personality, rather than players seeing them as the things that give you quests and rewards.
Although there are some genine unused transitions, ones such as the stone door in NW mirkwood work. However for that particular door to work, you need to be doing a particular quest which can be found in Esgaroth. Most of the time, doors and such which dont appear to work are only in place for certain situations.
3. Small things like poison for the players that wish to use it (I would also say trap components but it has already started to seep in ), lightweight throwing axes (those fifty axes weighs so much that everyone prefer to use a comp longbow, a thing I think Bioware missed in the game is that normally you pick them up after the fighting is done), alchemist fire and the like. Many things would work perfectly in a low magic world where things could be explained by chemistry rather than magic. Maybe even have an alchemist do the things for you (one alchemist on the evil side and one on the good) if you bring him the right things and pay him a small amount of gold.
Alchemy sounds like an excellent idea which we can take seriously. As for the axes, we could make weight reduction a standard property for throwing axes.
4. The possibility for rogues to actually disarm traps. Ive often had a rogue with me in my party and it seems they cant disarm any of the traps around the server. As it is now, rogues seem to be good for their sneak attack but that is about it.
Since all loot is single-shot, I'd like to start locking and trapping more containers. What i'd propose is a review of all containers and traps in each area and setting them up to better reflect the interests of rogues.
5. A tracking tool for rangers (seen it on another server and it worked great).
Possibly. It's a sound idea to improve the desirability of this class. - I will investigate this and see if it's feesible to implement it.
6. A bardic lore thing. On another server you could use Bardic lore on every map you entered to know some things about the area. A very nice feature (but it demands a lot from the builder team since they have to design a text for every area).
Great idea, brilliant. We are keen to see players take an interest in the world and this would only go further to improve the usefullness of Bards. It would increase their ability to tell tales and create suspense in a party. Ok, their NWN role is isentification of items but this is Middle Earth and we can call the shots. I think this idea could prove very successful if done right.
7. Give the evil player a bit more freedom of movement in some places and maybe a bit less in some. As it is now, Many places are impossible to move in as an evil player. I know that this is made so because of the layout of MERP, but the evil areas seem a bit underdeveloped compared to the good areas. Ive tried to go (with a map taken from one of the books) to Mordor or other evil countrys, but every time I seem to run into high powered elven archers (that kills me in one or two arrows) or other goodish people. The good side can move more or less freely, as long as they avoid Dol Goldur and Umbar (at least I think this the case, since I havent been able to find Mordor).
Obviously there is a limit to what we can do, due to the nature of the world we are playing in, but its possible we can make some changes. The evil areas (particularly Mordor) are very under developed and need some serious attention. Earlier on in the project they had to be made quickly to keep player interest as UTT2 was built up. Now that there is a wealth of existing activities, we can focus on improving what we already have, that means Mordor can be expected to be updated very soon.
8. A conversion smith in one of the eviil places (Umbar perhaps) so that evils dont have to go to Tharbad every time (and be chased out of there. I use a bit of metagaming when I wont conversion done, that is, enter Tharbad when I know the server is more or less empty).
Agreed and very easy to setup. Umbar is a good spot too. I often see it as the 'darker Tharbad'.
9. Random spawning script. Ive often seen this on other servers, although I dont know how this works. The spawns spawn at the same place but there are different spawns and sometimes even under/over powered spawns. For example, when you enter Ice lands you may have the chance to encounter Frost wolves, polar bears and maybe even Frost giants.
I understand what you mean here. It's not necessary to run this by script though. All you need is to make an encounter with the different enemies it can spawn and set is difficulty to reflect what will be spawned when the first character enters it. So ideally a level 2 character may spawn a goblin, a level 7 character may spawn a troll. It's very good, but it does present problems.
A high level may be travelling with low levels. He may spawn a tough opponent who the lower levels may not have a chance against. Left over spawns are also a problem, though in most cases, our area cleanup may solve that.
I will give it some thought though, as its a good idea and does bring some variation into play and prevents any players from preparing for a foe they always know is there.
We do have an existing system in place. It's quite new and is only just starting to be used. Its a conditional encounter system and spawns an encounter (which can be of random creatures) ONLY if certain conditions are met, such as a quest variable.
E.G. The Orc ambush in the gap of rohan only spawns if you have agreed to help the Rohirrim find their camp and kill their leader.
This allows us to place encounters in areas only used for travelling where lots of players pass and only have them spawn when a party who meet the conditions enter its trigger.
The conditional encounter system is a very significant step forwards for UTT2 and expect it to be used heavily over time. The new Rohan quest will be using it often and one of the Lorien quests already uses it. Conditional encounters allow us now to place encounters where we wouldn't normally dare, such as outside a new player area.
We are in the process of developing a list of plans for the regeneration of Tharbad where interaction and activities are key as Tharbad is a brilliant centre for players to gather.
Burglaries like you mention are actually part of a future quest i've got roughly penned. :)
Prophet7
01-01-2006, 13:35
I have to agree with Eddie there. Tyrion is lvl 19 and still minotaurs can usually hit him very often even with improved expertise on, and now a couple Ologs are more scary then most bosses.
But I think what the server needs most is more quests, expecially for high lvl goods and mid range evils. The gap between Isenguard and Mordor is huge, and for months now it seems like there is never a party strong enough to do the evil armor quest. The players with epic evils barely play anymore, and the most active evils highest lvl is 15 or 16 so even if one is around to help out the lvl difference of the party is would be too high.
Now the epic goods do have the Mad Mage, which btw is my FAVORITE quest on this server. It's fun, replayable, and hard but possible (although closer to impossible at the end with weaker items). Also the high lvl Erebor and Minas Tirith quests can advance a character quickly enough, but they seem aimed for lvl 16-20.
*loses his train of thought in a head on collision and gives up*
I'm committed to making new quests for the higher levels. But being quests for high levels, they tend to take time to make.
A reminder - Mind of a Madman quest is available to good and evil parties.
- Challenge ratings are very awkward to get right. We tend to leave them at default without modifying them. Personally, id take the challenge ratings with a pinch of salt.
Cullkett
01-01-2006, 13:53
The players with epic evils barely play anymore
Unfortunately i think there are only three or four epic level evils left playing on this server, so most of the high level Evil quests are unachievable with such a small party and seeing as the level limit for pc's in a party is a difference of 5 lvls it means partying with the mid lvl evils is not an option either :bigcry: beleive me i would love to use my evil pc's more!
Doomnair
04-01-2006, 00:36
Obviously there is a limit to what we can do, due to the nature of the world we are playing in, but its possible we can make some changes. The evil areas (particularly Mordor) are very under developed and need some serious attention. Earlier on in the project they had to be made quickly to keep player interest as UTT2 was built up. Now that there is a wealth of existing activities, we can focus on improving what we already have, that means Mordor can be expected to be updated very soon.
See what you mean about Mordor there Kev. Just found my way into the place today (by using "Running for your life"-technique) and it really feels like a place for the good guys to charge through. The shops are underdeveloped (many of the items are even under Isengard quality) and most NPCs dont respond when spoken to (although I like the answer from a particular Olog). Would also be a nice development to see more of those class/race restricted items (as of now Ive only seen wizard, dwarf and an orcish halberd). Dont know if max item lvl is still 20 (it was before the change) but if it is a lot could be done without making the items truly magical (keen, feats, skill enhancing, weight reduction and other things come to mind).
Unfortunately i think there are only three or four epic level evils left playing on this server, so most of the high level Evil quests are unachievable with such a small party and seeing as the level limit for pc's in a party is a difference of 5 lvls it means partying with the mid lvl evils is not an option either :bigcry: beleive me i would love to use my evil pc's more!
I think there are a number of factors for this and would also like to suggest that the number of regular good epics on the server is probably not much greater these days, in fact other than Samir and Argon and Veld I have not seen a good epic player online for a while. In any case, I for one would, under certain circumstances, be flexible on the 5 level gap with the following caveats.
1) There is a valid reason for a DM to aprove the temporary increase in level gap.
2) The lower levels are able to contribute to the quest and not just there for an xp boost.
3) Quest items are not held on to by those who cant get the quest yet.
I do think the difficulty of the epic quests and the capabilty difference between a level 21 and level 15 character means that the above caveats are natuarely and justifiably difficult to overcome. However, there is no harm in "occasionaly and politely" asking a dm to be flexible. After all, there is no satisfaction for those who created the quests if no one gets a chance to enjoy them.
Since when did we have a 5 level difference rule?
There is no such rule. What I do remember saying is that all members of a party should be contributing to the parties efforts. So if its a combat oriented quest, all members of the party shoud be able to fight the npc's.
If a party member wouldn't stand a chance against even the most basic enemies, they shouldn't be doing the quest.
I must admit I certainly was under the (false) impression that there was such a requirement.
Thanks for that clarification Kev.
I have said this a few times before, and I am sure that there was mention that crafting would be developed further. Something to keep players amused without wandering about waiting for their buddies to come online. I for one can say that the last few near death experiences of Vladnak have been while he has been wandering about. *remembers the last 4 deaths for a total of 12k exp wondering if he will ever get past lvl 15*.
Oh Happy New Year to you all, and thanks to DM Araw for sorting out Vladnak's inventory.
This is still one of the best mods around and hopefully I will have more time again to play it!
Unfortunately the crafting project was DM Aules and he left the team and community a few weeks ago due to other commitments. It was a very sophisticated system we had planned and neither I or Avalyn who have now taken over main scripting responsibilities are able to work out how to setup a system that meets my lengthy requirements.
Unless someone approaches me with the ability to create a top quality middle earth themed crafting system, we will have to wait till the NWN2 project where Barking Mad will have returned to us as lead scripter. The other possibility is that I come up with a brainwave and discover a cunning way to implement the system. This is not likely because im trying to commit myself to creating new activities for the higher level players.
Azmar's stuck with us for ages so I sure hope he is about more, al the way into UTT3 :P
Doomnair
04-01-2006, 21:06
Since when did we have a 5 level difference rule?
There is no such rule. What I do remember saying is that all members of a party should be contributing to the parties efforts. So if its a combat oriented quest, all members of the party shoud be able to fight the npc's.
If a party member wouldn't stand a chance against even the most basic enemies, they shouldn't be doing the quest.
I also thought this was a requirement. Great, now I can bring that low level rogue that actually can find those secret doors, traps a.s.o. for me
The mod could use some quests for lvl 14-17, that are not too hard. Doable by a party of two.
That is not the intended party size for quests for that level group. There is no real emergency to provide more quests in other than the areas we feel are under developed at this time.
The current high lvl quests are all designed for a big epic party, or you need at least one epic fighter to stand a chance.
That's very misleading. I know of plenty 'high' level quests which can be, and have been, completed by a competent party of teens.
Edit: by non powerbuild i mean any fighter who is not a weaponmaster or dwarven defender
That's very misleading too. Are all fighter/wm - fighter/dd powerbuilds? If this is indeed the case we could consider going through all these characters and force rebuilds of those who've maxed their hitpoints at each levelup for instance, then creating quests for characters of specific build wouldn't be an issue.
That's very misleading too. Are all fighter/wm - fighter/dd powerbuilds?
I think it was meant in a sense that with all the recent item/spell changes (especially nerfed DR and AC boosters), a single DD (and less so WM) is probably worth more than three sorcs on any high-level quest. In that sense, it is the least troublesome build to play - you know you'll always find a party (they need you, not the other way around!), and if you die, you usually die last.
DM Curumo
17-02-2006, 08:44
I would disagree here, for every character has it's benefits. A group would find it hard to last very long without at least 1 fighter, likewise a healer to bind those wounds saves much time and effort, and also a sorceror (if well protected by the wall of fighters) can actually be exceeedingly useful. Even rogues can deal a large amount of damage compared to other classes as long as they are careful and avoid direct single combat. In fact I have seen times when it is only the sorceror that has rescued the whole of the rest of the party from danger. So saying one class is better than another is just the same as saying why don't we all play DD or WM. I for one would find that rather dull.
clone number 3
17-02-2006, 08:57
I think it's fine to have lower level quests that can be completed by 2 people, as this allows new players a chance to meet & develop without an immediate need to find 5 additional players. Also it can allow more closely formed RP relationships to be created between 2 characters.
However, by the time you near level 10 I think the forming of larger parties is important. This is a RP, party favoured server. Allowing 2 higer level characters to complete quests alone is against the server's values and strikes me as a bit of munchkinism.
There are a number of ways to gather a party for such quests - IRC, the gatherings thread in the forums and a IC shout in game.
Also, I would completely disagree with the thought that non-fighters are effectively useless. On a number of occassions I have witnessed entire parties have been saved by a well timed spell or healing action in the middle of a battle.
It would also seem that the idea is to develop the use of skills and rogues to some degree, so I think there is a place for ALL character types in game.
I'm not saying that other classes aren't useful. Healing-type clerics do add a lot (playing one myself, I sure know ;)). Sorcerers are trickier - they generally don't have enough spells to consistently contribute throughout a long dungeon crawl (which high-level quests almost universally tend to be), but when it comes to the boss fight is where they shine.
My point though was that while these all are nice bonuses, they can be lived without. You can manage without a healer if you get another tank and heaps of kits. You can certainly manage without a sorc if you get another tank of the same level. As it is, I'd say two fighters have much more chances in e.g. Fen Hollen than a fighter with a sorc.
And I'm certainly not saying that we should all play DD/WM! Quite the opposite, in fact, I wish there were more reasons to consider other interesting classes and builds. The lack of such reasons was what Eddie originally spoke about. It's really just a balance issue, though, and I understand how tricky balance can be to achieve. I know I don't have many suggestions here, to be honest (there was one thought about heal kits being too widely available, but I've shared it with Kev already).
Also, I would completely disagree with the thought that non-fighters are effectively useless. On a number of occassions I have witnessed entire parties have been saved by a well timed spell or healing action in the middle of a battle.
To be honest, I've yet to see a single case where an arcane spellcaster saved the day where another tank couldn't. And healing actions? sure, except they are by no means limited to Clerics/Druids/Bards, as Fighters can max out Heal just as well.
clone number 3
17-02-2006, 10:03
To be honest, I've yet to see a single case where an arcane spellcaster saved the day where another tank couldn't. And healing actions? sure, except they are by no means limited to Clerics/Druids/Bards, as Fighters can max out Heal just as well.
You must be playing with the wrong people then! :)
True fighter types can max heal, but they are often so absorbed in killing what's standing infront of them, they don't notice the guy next to them is in serious trouble.
This is where the non meat shield's can excel. By using their brains and keeping an eye on the bigger picture they can turn a battle in subtle, yet highly effective ways.
Sure they may not get to shoot off multiple time stops and do all the wizz-bang crap (which is what a few people would love to do), but that's a part of what raises this server above the others.
I wouldn't agree that quests doable by 2 players should be available for level 14-17, as clone says it isn’t the way the server should go. I am aware that a lot of players hit a levelling wall around level 15 when they level a lot slower than they have perhaps got use to. I see this as a good thing, it focuses player attention on survival, rp and seeking parties and at the same time limits the number of high level players on the server.
As regards a sorcerer, I have to say Frain certainly finds that he is very valued and often sought out by members of his usual high level group:
1) For his cooking ;) (I must admit I think this is the most important reason)
2) being a hobbit he can hide away from the big folk do a lot of healing.
3) He keeps his bag of tricks handy and uses it wisely.
Of course the poor fellow needs a lot of looking after himself but that’s the price the party pays for his valued services :P.
One thing that I suggest when attempting a quest you're having difficulty with is to advertise for aid in the events thread.
If you’re getting very frustrated I also suggest (probably gona create controversy here) you ask for DM supervision so that a DM can see where you’re coming from and perhaps bat for your side.
Since I play the highest level sorceror in the server, I think I am justified in commenting on this. Fine at lower levels a sorceror needs to be conservative and control the spells he casts so that you do not slow the fighters down and rest every other moment. However as you progress in levels you get more spells allowing you to cast more and rest less, which makes sense. At high levels I think only once have I actually run out of spells to cast so saying they cannot contribute is wrong. The real difference is in how you use spells, my preference is for spells that effect as many people as possible for as long as possible, thus reducing the strain upon the warriors and allowing the to do their work. I have had complaints in the past that I was doing too much as it removed the challenge for them.
So find you can cast for example an ice storm to deal x amount of damage. or you can cast a fear spell that sends if you are lucky more than half the enemy running in fright for up to 10 rounds. You tell me which you would rather? That is just a single example, so playing a mage can make a big difference to a party and as long as they are protected they are more valuable than a single warrior, perhaps two in certain circumstances.
As I am sure alot of the high level evils will agree, there are some quests that are nearly impossible without a spellcaster, as enemy mages hide on top of a hill and rain devastation down upon the people beneath. And soloing a mage is pointless. This server was built with warriors in mind, but a mage should not be dismissed. Saying that I would hate to see loads of mages running around as they are meant to be a rarity in middle earth.
clone number 3
17-02-2006, 10:20
Saying that I would hate to see loads of mages running around as they are meant to be a rarity in middle earth.
And you would get more competition in the dress wearing stakes!
Are there enough tailors in Middle Earth?!
:)
DM_Olórin
18-02-2006, 03:20
I know you dm's only play with your buddies in big parties and prearrange stuff, but there is a large number of players who don't.
Yes it must be some kind of conspiracy against the players.
Like anyone I party with those whom I enjoy playing alongside. If that is a fellow DM or a player it matters not a jot so long as they are of an appropriate level and good company. MIRC and the forums are used to arrange sessions on which to meet friends for the bigger quests.
i'm sorry i forgot all us dms live on a different planet to all you guys.
ow wait we don't i've been a player far far far far longer than i've been a dm,
i still play with all the guys i used to as well as new oplayers and anyomne who generaly has time to rp rather than running off in a hurry trying to advance there characters, eddie if we gave all you characters max xp would you be happy then?
This really hasn't gone much further then when i last saw it has it. We've had some good comments from Guyror, Snarfel and Clone and then some silly digs at DMs.
To address the issue raised - no. The quest provision will remain as it is for the time being. For a more constructive use of his time, I would suggest the toughest character owner on the server stops being the sole whinger about hard quests and spends more time sitting in the Greyflood maxing out his hitpoints or something similarly appropriate.
Ok, temporary closure over.
Can we move on from the previous discussion please.
New topics related to relevant development required are more than welcome.
Silverleaf
18-02-2006, 22:52
Faramir and Boromir could use a face lift in my opinion. Boromir could do with some more solid, glamorous armor deserving of a Captain of Gondor, and perhaps Faramir should have a different looking armor, possibly some kind of light armor.
*waits for the nod from kev*
Scramasax
20-02-2006, 04:19
Voted "Other".
1) Perhaps more tuning to the relative sizes of areas? Seems like the world is made up of massive dungeons (like Moria, I'm told) and relatively small transit areas. Its an inherent flaw in NWN, but I hope it can be minimised as far as possible.
For example, the Shire is a massive 8 or more areas east to west, whereas the roads between Bree and Tharbad comprise a narrow 2 road areas. Feels real weird.
Work-wise, I'd actually suggest blowing up pretty much all the "road-only" maps to full sized areas. I stress that there's no need to build more areas or populate with foes and quests and such. Just place trees, hills, pools, rocks and a few cute fluffy bunnyrabbits for kebab purposes.
2) Along the same lines work-wise, I'd prefer if the settlements that already have been built are tuned-up (no broken transitions, reduced 'dead-end' doors, all NPCs speak at least a perfunctory greeting, typos eradicated, and so on).
There's no shortage of creativity, its just perfecting what's already there
Happy days
While I concur with Scramasax here, the problem is that such "brushing up" and general bugfixing is, from my own experience, a much more tedious and time-consuming task than it usually seems from the first glance. It's not really something a builder can do quickly in a five-minute break from his current main project.
Also, when you have really good designers, it is simply inefficient (and a pity as well) to waste their time on such mundane things. They've got better things to do, more appropriate to their skill & level of experience.
I think i've commented on travelling areas in the past.
Basically the way they are laid out now is the result of a predetermined decision of ours. Most travel areas are actually just as big as others, area wise. Most areas in the module are 12x12 in tiles (144 tiles squared) and are generally 12 tiles in length and width. Travel areas tend to be longer in one direction and shorter in another, e.g. if my memory serves me correctly, the great east road is something like 7 x 17, which is still just as large, area wise. Anyway, enough of my blathering about tiles... :P
There are a number of factors we had to take into account when deciding upon the role of these travel areas:
- Game Engine recommended area size: this is an area of 144 tiles. Larger areas can expect to encounter problems and this has certainly been the case with some UTT1 areas. Some of you may remember that areas shrunk a little when UTT2 was launched. So we keep areas at a total 144 tiles or below.
- Resources: Every area consumes server resources. It is our desire to have a completed Middle Earth map. Although we have a powerful server, there may come a day when it can take no further new areas, so we must remain economical over these sorts of areas.
- Gameplay/time allowances: We want the game to be fun and we want to make good use of our (at times very) limited building time. Would players rather travel through 4 or 5 road sections to get to Isengard, or would it be better to cut it to one or two areas so you can add a quest where you must poison a villages water supply? A good mod is one which is rich in activities and interaction, so we will just about always put this first.
I've always tended to treat the transition load screen as a narrative..."and so they travelled on for x many hours/days/etc". The travel areas could be seen as being in existance because something interesting is supposed to happen there - this could be something as simple as a party conversation on something plot related, or completely trivial - its an opportunity for quirky characters to shine and party relationships to develop. You need only an area or two to do this in.
*big sign saying Don't run on the grass*
when traveling if you keep your character to the road and don't run i can asure you the areas will seem much larger, theres not a great deal of point in us making uber big areas taking up our time and server resources when a bit of effort form the players to keep in character whilst traveling is all that is needed.
Mhyradin
20-02-2006, 12:30
Voted; More areas. Mainly because there are two areas in particular that I would like to see on the mod. The halls of Thranduil, king of the Greenwood and the city of Dale. They are well described in the hobbit and you could even have some usable barrels that give you a one way journey to Esgaroth after a short dialogue [You throw the barrel in the underground stream, jump on and hang on for dear life!].
Also I was a bit dissapointed when we had to go to Esgaroth on a quest the other night when we needed to find a dwarf. Elves and humans have their own, exclusive towns and areas and to my knowlege all the dwarves have is Moria and I've yet to find what nasties they have to share that with!
I expect this is the point where someone tells me they're already on and its just that I haven't found them yet.
I would like to see a bit of tidying up doing. The map pinned but not transitioned areas of the Shire and the unlinked transitions are the only blemish on what I regard as a perfect series of areas, both to look at and to play.
DM Curumo
20-02-2006, 12:53
Erebor is a very well known Dwarven town that is already there, and another in the Blue Mountains will be soon adding to it.
Djihesse
25-02-2006, 15:47
Vote 1: more quest for mid-lvl evil actually i have a lvl 9 evil and it is quite hard to find something that you can do... even if you find a buddy to be with you. The cold drake quest of Isengar can only be done by 3 or more big hitter character. The moria one i havent done it yet because of some lack of party member around. Also, once you finished all Dol Guldur quests (wich are very nice by the way), you are lose and have not much to do...
Vote 2: Rectifying bug/mistake, always better to do it quick before move one...
From my experience of evil character it is what I sense to lack actually on the server.
I have in the works (and it has been for some time now) an area north of Mordor that should have 2 groups of questgivers for each faction - one for mid-levels and one for higher levels - I'm working hard at it, but it's a big area - it will arrive eventually.
On the bugs front DM_Lorien does go through all the bug reports and has another fixes update almost finished. I know he's not been aboe to get one done for some time, and believe me it dissappoints him as much as the rest of us, hopefully should see one soon.
Scramasax
27-02-2006, 01:31
First, thanks to DM Kev for clearing that up.
Second, I'd still advocate perfecting what's already out there (if not travel areas)...
I expect this is the point where someone tells me they're already on and its just that I haven't found them yet.
An excellent example above, I THINK I found Thranduil's Halls in a cave network in Mirkwood. The caves were deserted except for a single spawn of elven warders, spellbinders etc. No King, no merchants, no guards, nor anyone to talk to.
I encounter the same for Rohan's Dunharrow. Once populated by silent folk, the next time just empty tents and campfires.
I've not played the evil faction, perhaps this is point where someone chips in to say these are the stomping & hunting grounds of evil PCs (just like Dunland, south of Tharbad), and I'm being silly because some evil PC had just stormed through leaving the place deserted? :) If so, can such settlements can be fleshed out?
Cheers,
They are indeed both quest areas for evil players. Caves in Mirkwood are not really Thranduil's Halls though, from what I understand, just a staging area for woof elf and Beorning forces to gather.
DM_Olórin
27-02-2006, 19:23
woof elves... hmm that would be an interesting pet.
At present there is no Thranduil's Hall area. Dunharrow and the caves you mentioned are indeed purely combat oriented areas. By all means RP with your Pcs in them if it is important to your characters background and interact in a friendly way with the allied NPCs if they are there but expect to be regularly interrupted by marauding evil PCs and gangs of orcs.
It is permisable to aid in the defence of such areas if you happen to be there, but these are quests vital to the development of the evil PCs that do them, so dont hang around the areas specifically waiting for a PvP opportunity. If you do choose to join in a combat remember to use your dislike wand on any enemy PCs present.
timppako
28-02-2006, 22:11
I gave my humble vote to: New scripts and module systems.
Azmar already said it, crafting would give us something to do while waiting for buddies. And it would make finding/searching crafting resourses more exciting. Everytime you find one, you start thinking what item this could be?
It would open also more RP opportunities. I can hardly wait for the time I could start playing my dwarven smith as a dwarven smith, not as a dwarf with silly feats for a fighter who claims to be a smith...
Anyways, I love this module. It has so much potential.
Also one suggestion. A chance to make higher starting level characters. It is really annying that low level characters in d&d are nothing. Perhaps making starting level 3 or 4 would make the game so much enjoyable right from the beginning. No more 1st level rathunts! This way even the first quests that players take could be more serious and better to the atmosphere of Middle-Earth mod. But this is just my humble opinion...
i dunno saving bree from goblins seems pretty serious as does finding a stolen harp, facing the undead of the barrows.ect.. thats all low level stuff
clone number 3
01-03-2006, 08:37
Personally I find some of the lower level quests the most fun on the server.
Let's cap all levels at 5!
Levels 1 to 5 are important in at least three ways from my perspective and all of them are rp aids. RP being very important on this server I cant see players being allowed to start with "developed" characters.
first, these levels allow new players to adjust to the server, penalties are less harsh and players familiarise themselves with what level of rp is expected.
Second, these levels gradually establish the foundations of the personality the character will have, sometimes this does deviate from what the player had in mind.
Third I feel that allowing levelled characters on would send the wrong "signal" ie it would distract from rp in favour of action.
Although pre leveled new characters is something we generally don't want to support, it has had it's place in a number of ideas i've had.
I've considered the idea of pre-leveled characters in some aspects of the new arena event im working on.
I've considered the necessity for pre-leveled characters in future dm events of a different format. E.g. Allowing players to play as a character in the books for whatever special reasons, as a one-off, obviously.
As you can see, these are ideas i've considered, built on and shelved a few times. I have a very big commitment to my new-born daughter at the moment, so I hope you all don't mind the delay in getting these plans to the centre of development activities.
timppako
04-03-2006, 10:07
I understand DM_Araw's point completely, it helps some players to develop their characters more when they have to start from level 1. Also it alienates some players because 1. there are not so many low level characters in the server (well at least there were not when I was starting, there seem to be more new players now, which is excellent) 2. it is hard to do some quests when you are a first level or second level character when one hit will kill you, I had tremendeous problems with some shire quests when I was playing with my sorcerer (you see the enemy, try to run away, failed, died...) 3. some players start the game with quite well developed character.
Most of these problems are quite easy to overcome with proper background. (like why some older character, like a man who is a ranger, is quite weak, what he is at level 1-2) One solution is multiple starting areas, that way player has more options. I myself don't like to make new first level characters, because I have limited playing time and it takes too long to level those few first levels that make the character playable.
I agree with clone, I too find that in DnD is most enjoyable with level 3-9 characters. The game is just very well balanced at those levels.
Keep up the good work and regards to all from here! It is cold (-30 degrees C) and there is plenty of work to do! See you later.
For me, pretty much the only trouble there is at low-levels (1-3) is that it is too often a one-hit-one-kill combat, especially for characters with HD of d8 and below.
Mithfindel
04-03-2006, 11:04
The start does after all have many non-violent quests.
The multiple start areas are a two-edged sword: While I'd much prefer that my elf starts in Rivendell (or Mithlond) etc. this would mean that either it's going to be hard, or then half of the mod must be geared towards starting-level characters. A single starting area is nice, because it does leave more space for things other, and then, all characters start there, thus the few low-levels are in a same place, more likely finding even-leveled company.
Though, yes, Umbar as a starting area (see the thread in question) is a good idea, due to not all evils are orc. While Dwarves and Elves in Bree can be justified as being passing thru, a Corsair in Dol is pretty much out of place. So, it's in this question, much like with many others, a balance to be found between loyalty to the setting (Burn Tharbad!) and gameplay. (It's a really nice & useful town, and a neutral haven is needed. Me likes.)
Right now, the persistent world seems to have a nice set of areas. I'd concentrate on adding content: Things here and there that help make the world alive. Though, I'd avoid excessive usage (see: Bree, Shire) - it is really nice work there (as in *really* nice), but it is also a performance hit.
Regarding the perfomance hit - I found it helps to consider it as a sort of a smooth upgrade path to NWN2 ;)
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