Suggestion/wish:

[Djihesse]

Actually, there is many conversation that you can try to persuade the NPC. I would like that most of those time, you could use Intimidate skills and perhaps Bluff check if the situation can be apply to it.

Thanks

[DM_Kev]

Our content building requirements have become more specific over time.

Rest assured that all conversations in quests to come will require multiple means of reaching an outcome. We may look at expanding on existing conversations too where we feel they can be improved.

[int19h]

It's great to hear that Kev, just to add something which might still be missing: some RP use for Rogue skills (Pickpocketing, especially) would also be a nice alternative to add to some quests; e.g. it would fit the existing harp quest in Bree very well.

[DM_Kev]

I had an idea for PP skill whereby a thief can attempt one theft from each shop per reset.

A successful theft attempt would result in gaining a random item from the range the shop sells.

Naturally, theft, whether successful or unsuccessful will affect alignment.

[Tulkas]

cool

[int19h]

Neat! What could also be added to that is a logging facility for unsuccessful attempts (you'd imagine the shop owner will complain to the guards if he notices the theft), so that DMs can use such information for their purposes (e.g. declare a particularly notorious thief to be wanted in a certain region).

[Flamgoch]

This pickpocket discussion gave me an idea. How about implementing a jail system, where caught criminals (thieves and other unsavory types) would get a jail token (a ball and chain) and transported into a jail cell (e.g. the ones in Tharbad), thus rendering the char unplayable for a while. After server reboot the system would detect the token and drop the char right back to his cell. After his time is served a dm could remove the token and free the character.

[DM_Olórin]

jail cells are goin in in minas tirith as well so maybe we could look at implementing something of this ilk at some point in the near future

[Mithfindel]

While there is a very good coverage of DMs, perhaps that would be a bit harsh. However, by placing in a locked cell, the character would be practically rendered unplayable until next reboot (unless you like to RP being an inmate).

With clever use of tokens, it'd be easy actually make a series of tokens that count the time spent on a cell (three resets left chain, two days left chain) or with a simple database script, this wouldn't need tokens at all. Anyway, by tokens these would be checked when entering the game for the first time after reboot, and then modified accordingly. Other possibility would be to make a script that counts the amount of tokens, one token to be removed each reset.

[Nightwind]

Well... pickpocketing is theft, and theft is a crime, and a crime deserves to be punished, and punishment is not supposed to be fun.
So... I'm all for that idea!

[Silverleaf]

I would go so far as to remove pickpocketing altogether. Honestly, I've found it only gets players pissed off at eachother when they lose something valuable, even though it's fair roleplaying. Or, have only gold that can be pickpocketed, except in a greater amount.

[DM_Olórin]

Im not suggesting that as a matter of course a pickpocked be imprisoned. but persistent master thieves that get nabbed might be locked up as an IC bit of RP, they could plead/bribe their way out or in the case of the Minas Tirith guardsmen who are less readily corruptable perhaps a cunning escape plan or rescue by friends.

At the worst a player could play a different PC while the prisoner languishes in pokey

[Canuck]

I would like to see a system that involves the players. Perhaps a bounty or something is put out on a PC. The bounties could be of various degrees from wanted for questioning to wanted dead or alive. Make a time limit on the bounty so that if the guilty party can avoid being caught in the time period, he can get away. The bounties could be placed in the jail house or somewhere for players to check and see. It would take some intelligent play from all involved, but I think if done right it could be some good RP.

[int19h]

Pickpocketing's not fun unless you know you're being a bad guy doing it. And that means you're punished if you get caught. So bring it on! ;)

[clone number 3]

But surely nobody would lock up a small boy whose only avenue left open to him in order to feed the orphans of Tharbad is to "borrow" some coin from those that wouldn't miss it....would they?!

[Mithfindel]

clone,

certainly would. Justice be served!

[clone number 3]

clone,
certainly would. Justice be served!

*Adds Mithfindel to "the list"*

[SNarfel]

I'm all for players putting up bounties and trying to "bring to justice" anyone they feel has done them wrong, creative player rp and interaction is of course welcome as it makes for a richer playing environment. Just make sure that both parties are clear on what is going on, especially if the players involved are not ones that usually play together. By all means send a request for DM involvement in the DM channel, if one is free they will help out in any way they are able to.

[La_Crampe]

Im not sure I understand why it is such a crime to "pick Pocket" (not that I am a burglar), when killing hundred...even thousand of people is considered an act of heroism.

[DM Curumo]

Pick Pocket vs a player is something that many people find distasteful, but others find a good 'laugh'. We have had problems in the past from people being targetted too frequently, which is why we have a whole rules section regarding the use of the skill.

[Nightwind]

Main problem with the NWN pickpocket implementation is that it is extremely unrealistic. The engine allows you to steal _anything_ out of a char's inventory, including a 50 pound suit of plate. That's complete nonsense IMHO.
Apart from coins, nothing taking up more than 2 inventory squares should be pickable. Anything larger than that should automatically be noticed, unless the victim is drunk as a drayman or fast asleep.

Of course, I'd ideally prefer to see PP banned/disabled altogether. But if that's not up for discussion, the next best choice is to make the system sane.

[DM Curumo]

The current system means you very rarely get anything but coins / meat. And if anything valuable is taken, you should always offer it's return... for example..

'you appear to have dropped something, being a good natured hobbit I was returning it too you... any chance of a reward?'

[SNarfel]

The bottom line is that pick pocketing is allowed on the server and we have guidelines for it. For all its imperfections in NWN, previous discussions have usually come out in favour of retaining it. For particularly rare items which would be difficult to replace we do urge the thief to rp having acquired the item by legitimate means and getting them back to the original owner for a “reasonable sum of gold or other compensation”.

[La_Crampe]

Well, a player can always invest points into Spot. The same way players invest points in Discipline when they dont want to get disarmed or knocked down. All NWN features (realistic or not)have their counterpart, and none can have it all.

[ghost81]

Agreed - but we have sen some serious griefing with pickpocket in the past.

[Kyle Morgan]

Actually, there is many conversation that you can try to persuade the NPC. I would like that most of those time, you could use Intimidate skills and perhaps Bluff check if the situation can be apply to it.

Thanks

I never really understood why most uses of intimidate :curse: give an evil alignment shift.
Intimidation is not only a class skill for hobbit shirrifs, i also strongly believe that intimidation is not only used by Sauron's lackeys. :argue:
I would like to see intimidation as a skill for all sort of alignments. Even lawfull good paladins could prefer to use intimidation over making an example by killing.

[SNarfel]

I agree, intimidation in itself is not necessarily evil, it is the context in which intimidation occurs that should dictate shift in alignment.

[DM_Olórin]

I see your point Kyle, but considering the context, its generally used as an option for an evil character to do something nasty, and that has to mean a small alignment shift. Basically they are using threats of force, even murder to achieve personal gain.

In instances when an NPC is simply being obstructive for the same reason, ie - "i wont tell you where the nasty kidnapper went unless you pay me (the NPC in question) oodles of gold" - then a Lawful or Good player would be justified in using intimidate as a display or righteous indignation and threats of just punishment for his unlawful / evil attitute. I dont think in an instance like that an evil shift is warranted.

But as i said above in the mod most intimidate checks are used clearly in a way to achieve extra gold through menaces. The context of the dialogue option should give some kind of clue as to whether or not you are choosing to put an innocent party in fear of you for your own selfish pride/greed, or lean on a villain a bit.

[Kyle Morgan]

I would support that, but sometimes i want to play selvish, greedy, rude people what does not make them necessary soldiers of Mordor. The alignment shift includes a faction shift though, so i cannot act properly IC unless i want to end up as Sauron's lackey.
For one example there is an intimidate option with Norn the delver in the shire after finding the dead hobbit, in which you get pissed and ask for more gold because of all the unexpected troubles you had to go through. I would not call this evil. Evil would be to see his full purse of gold and threaten him to pay more because he has more.
I see intimidation in different ways - it does not always mean to put a knife to someones throat, it can be cold eyes, a raised voice or a ruthless reputation...

[Mhyradin]

I suppose if we were to have to draw a distinction between intimidate, persuade and bluff then intimidate would be the nastier of the three. And on some quests all three come up as an option giving you more of a chance to play your character. But this does leave the question of whether any threats involved in intimidation would actually be carried out.