Sorcerer clarification

[barneynibbs]

I was thinking out my character's (Rhyll) future and was planning on taking levels in Sorcerer in the future, but then I noticed the bit from the player's guide about Sorcerer being disabled and the Wizard class renamed to Sorcerer. Does this mean, then, that a Sorcerer in UTT2 gets spellbooks and is based on INT and not CHA?

I imagine this was discussed a long time ago when making the decision to disable the Sorcerer class in favor of the Wizard class structure, but since I wasn't around in that Age of the world I will have to ask it again. ;) I've also searched the forum for any discussion of the topic, but either it doesn't exist recently or the search function doesn't work right - I couldn't find anything.

And then to get into a philosophical debate (if anybody wants to), I would have thought that the Sorcerer class, as is, is the most appropriate magic-user class for Middle-Earth. I have always seen Middle-Earth magic as being an extension of personal or internal power. All of Tolkien's references to "revealing power" or "putting forth power" and so on didn't seem to fit (for me) the classical Wizard approach to magic of spellbooks and rote rituals.

Not that anybody has asked for it, my 1.5 cents would have been to keep the Sorcerer class as is and simply do away with the Wizard class all together. Or, maybe, restrict the Wizard class to just the canonical wizards from the books if a convincing argument could be made that the Wizard class is inherently a stronger/more powerful class then the Sorcerer, which I think could be made.

Anyone want to rebutt? ;)

[DM Curumo]

You are correct in what you say, sorcerors are based upon int here. As for the original sorceror class, it was the brian child of dungeons and dragons being beings infused with dragon blood and so being able to draw upon those powers to cast their spells (not really tolkeinesque).

[barneynibbs]

Okay, that answers my UTT2 question, so everything else here is simply philosophical debate. ;)

Hmmm, true that the original D&D concept is not Tolkienesque, but that is just a written concept pretty much independent of the functioning of the class itself. In all the PnP games I have played we have never focused on the dragon relationship with the class but the personal power aspect of it. Sorcerers, to me, are people that perform magic through the use of their own innate power or ability. Wizards, on the other hand, perform magic through learning specific "recipes" for drawing upon the magical energies in the world around them.

In Tolkien's world, there is no external magical force or spellbooks from which to learn the recipes with which to manipulate it. All magic, from the Valar down to the personal presence of individuals (like Denethor and Aragorn), is based upon the innate power that each person contains. There is Glorifindel "revealed in his power" at the Ford of Bruinen, the battle of wills between Denethor and Gandalf during the seige of Minas Tirith, Frodo's ability to resist the Morgul blade from Weathertop and Elrond's "putting forth his power" to heal him later in Rivendell. And the list can go on.

I guess the debate comes in with the acts of magic that we are provided by Gandalf - acts that we would typically call spell effects in D&D. He brings forth light from his staff on multiple occassions, lights pinecones on fire to hurl at wargs, and even repels the Nazgul as they attack Faramir during his mad retreat after the fall of Osgiliath. The question becomes whether he is casting spells (and by spells I mean a specific effect he has learned somewhere) in these instances or is he simply using his own innate power in a specific way? Or could they even be manifestations of the Ring of Fire or part of his normal abilities as a Maiar of Aule (I believe Olorin was one of Aule's Maiar, but don't quote me on that)?

As you can probably tell, my view is that all "magic" in Middle-Earth is really an extension of personal or inherent power exhibited in different ways. ;)

[karakedi]

Actually, since the Istari as Maiar possessed strong intrinsic 'magical' powers, it might make sense that the Children of Eru would achieve additional powers through study and mastery of lore. A mage could well be a scholar of the Art, and at least one player in UTT successfully presents himself that way.

Elves have some intrinsic power, though less than the Ainur, but even they would develop whichever of the arts held personal appeal for them. Thus one might focus on destruction of foe, whereas another might focus on healing, and so on.

(I believe Olorin was originally a Maia of Lorien and a student of Nienna.)

:cat:

[barneynibbs]

Hmmm, there are certainly enough examples of people learning powers, so my original thought is only half-true. ;) Sauraman has to learn about making rings, Sauron teaches subtle crafts to the smiths of Erebor, the Numenoreans learn things from the Elves, and so on. I guess one could argue that all these examples of learning could simply be learning how to extend personal power, but I think that is a stretch even from the peddler of the thought. ;)

[Scramasax]

I'm hardly an expert on Tolkien lore, but I've always imagined the Maia and so on having their powers most closely akin to high level D&D sorcerors. Certainly not due to having the blood of dragons, but rather because their powers are (a) uniquely magical, (b) presumably limited in scope to a certain extent (e.g.maia of Aule, etc), (c) innate rather than learned, and (d) charisma-based, often demonstrated by leadership and persuasive powers (even Balrog leaders of Morgoth's hordes).

Race-wise, I'd imagine or implement Maia as half-elf for convenience. (a) Their possible resemblance to men, (b) certain other-wordly advantages over men (ie magical resistances to enchantments), (c) diplomacy and gather info skills and (d) simply cos there isn't a half-elf race in Tolkien (its only elf or man by choice).

It is most certainly jamming a square peg in a round hole. But I imagine these round holes as the squarest :P

Gandalf perhaps a mid-lvl paladin epic sorceror multi-class (Shadowfax mount). Sauron perhaps a high-lvl fighter (more XP from all his battle experience) epic sorceror (with auto-still spell, Polymorph and Shapechange) with maybe a few Blackguard lvls. I'd even extend my imagination to so include Valar and Morgoth as lvl 40 builds (something like D&D deities).

Come to think of it, I'd implement the returning elves that "still had the fire of Aman in their hearts" or whatsit as temporary 10+ lvl gain that diminished over centuries. Would make an epic lvl elf be able to challenge and slay Maia (Balrogs) and even wound Morgoth himself (Fingolfin was it?).

[int19h]

Myself, I prefer to see the removal of D&D Sorcerer class as a purely gameplay/balance thing, simply because widespread usage of arcane magic, as presented by both Sorcerers and Wizards, is something that is hard to explain in ME setting, no matter whether it is learnt or innate; so I see any comparisons between the two in terms of how tolkienesque they are as rather pointless - neither is!

[Mithfindel]

As a note, Sauron did not have much battle experience. For sure, we do know that he fought twice: Against Huan in the Isle of Werewolves (former Tol Sirion) and then, in the end of the siege of Barad-dur he fought Gil-Galad and Elendil. In both fights he was beaten, though admittedly, he did manage to kill his opponents in the later time.

If mage duels count, he has one victorious duel against Finrod Felagund, but that's it. The rest of Sauron's battles would be more like hiding in a fortress, putting prices on people's heads and sending out his underlings.

Anyway, I find the current system rather good now. Admitted, the name change, which is one purely cosmetic thing, does create some confusion, but otherwise it is pretty nice, and in terms with Tolkien's writings.

[ghost81]

The reason for the name change is very simple - there were but five wizards in Middle Earth - the Istari. We renamed Wizards sorcerers for this reason. We felt the wizard class was less powerful on the whole than sorcerer, but we didn't want a world full of wizards.

[barneynibbs]

Myself, I prefer to see the removal of D&D Sorcerer class as a purely gameplay/balance thing, simply because widespread usage of arcane magic, as presented by both Sorcerers and Wizards, is something that is hard to explain in ME setting, no matter whether it is learnt or innate; so I see any comparisons between the two in terms of how tolkienesque they are as rather pointless - neither is!

Too true. ;) "Magic" is a very unique thing in ME, which I think is why I have always viewed it as innate over other interpretations. It is just a debate over how to best represent "magic" in a gaming system that makes it worth discussing at all. ;) Since we are using the D&D system we are pretty much stuck using the square peg/round hole analagy also offered. A discussion on the nature of power in Tolkien's world would probably be more interesting then which D&D character class is the most appropriate. ;)

[int19h]

IIRC, all magic used by non-Ainur was not in the end of their own creation, but merely borrowing the power from greater beings (the Silmarils obtained their magical properties from the light of the trees; Galadriel used her Ring to protect her realm; etc). This makes Wizards hard to explain (as they aren't seen using any artefacts to aid themselves), while Sorcerers are very straightforward - they are humans (or elves) with Maia blood, most likely distant descendants of Melian, through Eluréd and Elurín. If you remember, the twins were left to die in the forest, but their further fate is unknown; and in particular, Nandor elves of the region believed that the children were not touched by wild beasts, but rather lead by them to food and water and the shelter of the forest depths, and thus survived. This is vague enough to allow for various afterthoughts, and specifically: since they are part of the Half-elven line of Beren/Luthien (through their father Dior), they would have to choose whether to count themselves as elven or human. Should one choose to be an elf, and another to be human, you get two lines through which both elven and human Sorcerers can come to existence.

[barneynibbs]

I'm probably agreeing with you here, but any human of Numenorean descent could exhibit Sorcerer-like abilities simply by being of that bloodline. The closer to the "royal" bloodline, of course, the more abilities this type of person could show. Kind of goes back to persona power for me, though - these are all examples of people/descendants who have been touched by the Light of the Trees and the Valar, giving them a "grace" that normal creatures don't have.

But I think there are other examples of "Sorcerers" that were not touched in this way. The Pukel-men jump to mind, though I can't think off the top of my head whether we are shown any Pukel-men that could be considered shamans and "casting spells" of any sort.

Isn't Thranduil supposed to have some sorcerer-like abilities? I have a vague recollection in The Hobbit of it being mentioned that he had strong magics of some sort, but then his powers may still stem from the same "grace" that most Elves in the books have at one level or another. I thought he was one of the grey elves, though, that never saw the light of the Trees.

And then there is the question of any "magic" that the dwarves may have access to. Again, I would have to go back for examples, but weren't there magical weaponry and armor mentioned in the relation to the dwarves? I know some of the horde regained with Smaug's death came from the elves originally, but how about the Arkenstone that glowed in the heart of the mountain whenever foes were near to it?

Well, back to the school work. ;)

[karakedi]

barneynibbs writes:


Isn't Thranduil supposed to have some sorcerer-like abilities? I have a vague recollection in The Hobbit of it being mentioned that he had strong magics of some sort, but then his powers may still stem from the same "grace" that most Elves in the books have at one level or another. I thought he was one of the grey elves, though, that never saw the light of the Trees.

[Information dump]:

Thranduil was a Sinda (grey elf); the Sindar in Doriath benefitted from their exposure to Melian and the second-hand light of Aman that she reflected. That's likely why they're referred to as grey and not dark. Technically, of course, they're counted as moriquendi ('dark elves') who never saw the light of the Two Trees, but they aren't as 'dark' as those who did not have Melian among them.

As for elven magic, some level of what men would call magic was innate in all elves, the Firstborn. However, from their viewpoint, it was not supernatural, but part of their nature and a form of art. Elves were devoted to art in its many forms, and they had abilities and skills that promoted the arts they practiced. Some of these might seem magical to those who did not have them. To the elves, they were part of their being, hence Galadriel's disparaging comment about magic as practiced by mortals.

The Calaquendi ('light elves') in general had more such ability, skill, and 'grace' than their Moriquendi cousins. However, all elves had some degree of what barneynibbs calls "grace," perhaps in varying domains. For example, the Noldor were skilled in craftsmanship, whereas the Nandor were specialized in woodcraft.

[/Information dump]

:cat: