Sauron's alignment?

[Steve-Law]

Quick question (on the surface at least :)), out of interest, what alignment would Sauron (and in fact Melkor?) be...

Well "Evil" - duh! ;)

(Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic?)

[ghost81]

Arguably Lawful Evil - Melkor in particular. Then again I suppose the whole rebellion against the design of Illuvatar could be seen as more 'chaotic'.

I suppose it underlines one of the problems with the DnD alignment system - they don't always fit characters from 'other' worlds.

[Steve-Law]

LOL. Aye, I suspected a bit of "on the other hand" ;)

[ghost81]

Actually been thinking about this one - and I would think that it probably all depends on the alignment of the Valar/Illuvatar - if they are Lawful Good (which seems probable on the whole) and Sauron/Melkor are diametrically opposed to all they stand for (which seems to be the case) then Sauron and Melkor would be (to my mind) Lawful Evil.

Saruman now - there's a different picture, having gone through an alignment shift I'd guess that he's more likely to be Chaotic Evil - he's certainly much more self serving - he would happily betray his alliance with Sauron for his own gain.

[int19h]

I'm not sure how 'Lawful' would fit into it. It implies adherence to certain principles, something I do not recall Morgoth ever doing (and Sauron is really just a pale shadow of his former master) - he only ever bothered about gaining more power for the sake of it. Overall I think Chaotic Evil suits him best.

[Mhyradin]

Yes, I'd be intrigued to hear any arguement for lawful. I has to be chaotic, given the way these beings behave in the books. Unless one were to say that even Sauron is ultimatley a creation of Illvatar and therefore lawful as he fits into the 'grand design' but that is streching a point.

[Steve-Law]

He uses structure and hierarchy. Besides, his "principle" might be to achieve power above all else, which means he can do pretty much anything he wants as long as it helps him gain power, and he's still following his principles.

(Damn, I didn't want another alignment debate :))

I think we can probably leave him as Evil and ignore the other side of it :)

Edit: It could be argued that the most important aspect of Him in this setting (our game) is the structure and hierarchy side of things (that's where our characters fit in).

Another Edit: His "Law" might be "Do What Thou Wilt" ;)

[ghost81]

Surely it's not 'power for the sake of it' - he has an end-goal - total dominion over the world with the other Valar either thrown out of subdued.

[DM_Olórin]

Ok then how about.. pure evil.. neutral evil.
Not obedient and loyal like lawful evils, not random and uncontrolled evil like chaotic evils.

His followers would be of any of the evil alignments bepending largely upon race and overall sanity. His obedient servants would be lawful evil.

I feel that saruman would most likely be neutral evil as well.
He is self serving, but chaotic evil tends to conjure an evil for the fun of it image in my minds eye that one such as he would regard as foolish (i think).

He may have been bitter and vengeful in his latterday sacking of the shire but that was more because he had been stripped of power and the hobbits were an easy target in an out of the way corner of the world most more able folk had little interest in.

[Steve-Law]

Split the difference - NE works for me :)

[ghost81]

*Nods in agreement and goes back to the drinking*

[clone number 3]

*Nods in agreement and goes back to the drinking*

*cries because it's not fair*

[ghost81]

*would roll around the floor laughing at clone, but is already rolling around the floor drunk* Damn shame what?

[clone number 3]

*would roll around the floor laughing at clone, but is already rolling around the floor drunk* Damn shame what?

*Sees what ghost81 is rolling about in and doesn't feel jealous anymore*

[LieutLaww]

Oi im the only Laww around here :P

[Steve-Law]

I beg to differ ;) ^

[DM_Kev]

If we look very closely at some of the specific acts Melkor/Sauron committed, we may be able to come to a clearer conclusion. To me, the boundaries of the DnD system don't quite cut it for these two characters.

Melkor sought to create a world different to the ideals of the other Valar - artistic differences? Perhaps Melkor saw darkness and a harsh environment as good?. He seems to (from my readings of the Simarillion) gradually fall into acts of pure evil though. Maedros was hung from his fortress by his arm(?) for instance. He created the Orcs by corrupting and disfiguring Elves and Men. This gives me the impression of a sadist and one of pure evil.

Sauron is just pure evil through and through - he was Melkor's chief lieutenant and followed his masters example. Sauron has single handedly been responsiblefor the fall of Numenor and has been able to create a ring capable of spreading evil and violence amongst the people of Middle Earth.

Basically...evil, evil, evil, weeeevil :P

[DM_Melkor]

Melkor 4tw tbh :E

Eeeeeeeeevvvviiiiilllllllllll :P