View Full Version : Important Decision
So it seems there is a slight problem with the characters on the server and them being moved over. It can be sorted, it will just take time.
But within the time you all can make a decision. The decision whether or not to have a character wipe along with the new server. With the amount the server has changed since many of our players began, I am sure it will seem like a totally new experience. But it is your call.
Note that we wont have a character wipe if the community does not want it, we are merely giving you the opportunity to make the decision, and please, dont feel pressured into making a decision, decide in your own time. That being said, you have only a day before we use your votes. :P
What blasphemy is this?!
Hear us out :) Here's some of the reasoning behind the suggestion.
1. We are about to begin a massive PR campaign to boost the profile and exposure of the server. This means lots of new players and new beginnings really. If there are lots of characters of similar status around, this will help these new players adapt more easily.
2. Ideally, all characters social standings/guilds and knowledge of others such as friends and allies would be allowed to persist between the wipe.
3. The game has changed so much at the lower-end and in the background whilst people have been marching around slaying ancient cold drakes, olog hai and dastardly balck numenoreans.
So yeah - fresh start, new beginnings, and a good opportunity. That sort of thing.
But you people are the ones who make that decision.
Silverleaf
01-05-2007, 09:07
* Silver ponders very hard about this...
Before I go casting my vote, I want to shout out loud the positives and negatives I see about this:
Positives:
- Everyone starts at the same level, allowing for a lot heavier roleplay for the next few months
- The chance to start a-fresh, and ideally begin a new character that will automatically prosper
- Altogether better roleplay and a tighter community
Negatives:
- The loss of high level characters that took over two years to achieve
The good does outway the bad. But here's what's turning my mind-- for the last 6 months the server has truly declined. I've done maybe two/three quests, the last one being sometime in February. If there's a server wipe, I'll have the opportunity to start roleplaying heavily again, and so will others.
So yes, I'm going to vote for a fresh start, for everyone.
The one thing I do ask is that the DMs take a far more active role in the server helping out to spice up quests and do events. Not meaning to lash out here, but other than Validriel's Military Summits, when was the last time you saw an event planned in one of the calender's? Come on MERP! Let's get the act together and put this awesome gameworld back to #1!
Battles, arenas, dungeon breaking! DM_Olorin and DM_Araw were always doing this, and great is their loss, but so much that the new DMs can learn from and aspire towards.
Speaking of the loss of high-level characters, there's something that could be done about it. For those who do not wish to recreate their more prominent high-levels, how about putting them into the gameworld as non-story-related NPCs? It makes sense from a lot of perspectives: say, a veteran dwarf warrior, renowned in the years of his adventures, is now retired to be an expert smith in Erebor. Some of the evils could find a more permanent position in Khamul's court. The elves, get weary and and settle down in Lindon, in preparation for the final journey to the West.
That way, even with the new characters, we still have a reminder of the glorious days of old. ;)
It seems (at least to me) that there are more positives than negatives - so I voted 'yes' for wipe.
Yes, but do these too:
1. no elves older than millenia
2. no PC magic (or make spellusing classes required to multi)
3. no prestige classes
4. no spell casting orcs, goblins and such as foes
That would equalise.
I would play, but might be duller, and i better start running.
Regardless of choice, my plans to inject some life back to into the community are looking for ideas from the whole community. There will be a number of changes at all levels - from staff, to organisation, to server, to mod. There will be an increased level of engagement with players as this is key.
But yes a wipe is a fresh start. Where the world may be rediscovered for some, new players can be more easily inducted and new ideas can be tried out. As Wireplay was only relaunched yesterday. we have a good potential pool of players to recruit from.
Some good ideas here already which I would like us to use.
Silverleaf - grand suggestions there. The Arena I do have something planned to run that again and address the "compatability" with middle earth/utt2 issues. Rest assured UTT2 will still have its glorious hours of adventure, but so does something else i'm cooking up, 100% pure unadulterated dungeons...for those of that persuasion anyway...
int19h - Like it. If there is indeed a wipe, I will start a thread so people can retire and request npcs. Though I hope many of the well known faces continue.
DM_Olórin
01-05-2007, 13:22
I understand the good side of having a vault wipe, after all i was here for the last one and given the change in the style of the mod form UTT1 to 2 it was absolutely essential.
I think that if the wipe does go ahead on this occasion that i shall need to retire most of my collection of 30 or so characters saving a few of them for NPChood and consigning the rest to memory. Given my current circumstances i cant forsee ever having the time to recreate the likes of my old dwarf Veld and have him reach the heroic status that he currently enjoys all over again as i dont get in game very much these days and havent been able to for a while.
If we want to RP and party with new players we can always make some new characters indeed most of us have plenty of lower lev characters, I know i have :) (most of them in fact).
But if the characters cannot be saved then so be it.
*the old man pats the old dwarves on their stout backs and watches them stride (Fasin), stride lop-sidedly (Veld) and hobble slowly (Ibun) up the mountain*
I hate to sound like im being self-centred in any way about this, thats not my style at all, but i confess that im very sentimental about some of my old favourites :P
If we continued with the existing characters but also encouraged everyone to create at least 1 new character - what would your thoughts be on that?
This means that there is still the facility for new players to be inducted more easily...
I would agree with DM_Olorin in that there's nothing preventing people
from starting new characters whenever they want. If anyone wishes to
keep the one or more character/characters they like playing, why not?
Is it not self-centered to ask for a vault wipe when same effect can be
achieved by agreeing to make new chars?
DM_Kev's suggestion would seem like a good compromise to me.
I have to say my playing time is limited, and I doubt I could put the time in to playing my favourites to get them to where they are now. And I often start new characters if there are new players online.
I would agree with DM_Olorin in that there's nothing preventing people
from starting new characters whenever they want.
True, but quite often the reason not to is because you don't know if anyone else did. By forcing everyone to start new characters at the same time, you guarantee that, for a while at least, that won't be a detriment.
By the way, should it come to implementing the wipe, another approach would be to auto-delevel to lvl1. For those who'd like to keep most of their characters, it would save considerable time rebuilding them (and remembering the details of the initial build).
Silverleaf
01-05-2007, 16:36
By the way, should it come to implementing the wipe, another approach would be to auto-delevel to lvl1. For those who'd like to keep most of their characters, it would save considerable time rebuilding them (and remembering the details of the initial build).
Very good point int19h. :)
As for Kev's suggestion of keeping some characters but forcing a new one... I'm sort of against that. It doesn't push that fresh start we want.
What could work however, is the use of a script similar to that used in the arena. Here me out:
Players are allowed to keep 1-3 characters of choice on the server, swiping out the rest. However, these kept characters will automatically be sent to a private area still within the game world but limiting them from questing at all. This would allow for them to roleplay with other old, saved characters while still forcing them to create a new character if they truly wish to play on the server. It's sketchy, but might work.
Personally though, I like the NPC idea. :)
True, but quite often the reason not to is because you don't know if anyone else did. By forcing everyone to start new characters at the same time, you guarantee that, for a while at least, that won't be a detriment.
You're correct, but I was hoping that it would've been unnecessary
to force anyone to start anew - but that's me hoping :)
Dakota Strider
01-05-2007, 17:43
It seems to me, most of the people that are pushing hard for a wipe, are people that have not been actively playing on server on the last few months. Saying that if everyone else that has been playing on the server during this time, was suddenly forced to start anew, and abandon any high level characters they may have, would suddenly create more activity on the server, sounds dubious to me. Those of of that have been active on the server, start new characters all the time, and would do so again if there was an influx of new or returning characters to play with. But what happens if we do a wipe, and those of us with active characters rebuild and relevel them, and noone actually does come back and join us? Basically we have wasted our time.
Another point, I would like to dispute, is that by making us all recreate our favorite characters at level one, will increase the role-play and interaction. In my opinion, many will want to get their favorite characters back up to the levels that they enjoyed them best at. So, there will less interaction with new people, then if we kept our old characters around, but started new characters. A new character has a new story, and part of the new story is interacting with others. Trying to re-write the history of an existing epic character seems like it will lead to all sorts of inconsistancies with what we remember, and how the "new" history plays out.
Also, UTT MERP, is not your standard cookie cutter world. Middle Earth has a rich history that most players on the server know about. I would think that new players coming to the server, would expect some high level characters around, that have histories to make the world seem more alive. At least I would.
Another problem I foresee, if everyone starts anew. There are only so many low level quests available, and there will be a lot of competition to use those areas. Saying the solution is larger parties does not seem practical to me. Many of the low level areas are able to be done now with only 1 or 2 characters with medium risk. I am thinking of a recent quest, at the goblin cave just south of Bree as one example, where my mage (either level 3 or 4) teamed up with a level 3 rogue, and had no problem completing it without resting once. Having a party of 5 or 10 or 15, would make quests completely boring and no challenge whatsoever. Keeping the spread of character levels, as it is now, does not prevent high level characters from rping with low levels, but it does keep the traffic in the adventuring areas to a minimum.
If someone wants to start anew on the server, then by all means start a new character. You don't need to wipe out other people's characters to do that. I would welcome any new and returning players to come back, because there have been fun times, even before the new server has been installed.
clone number 3
01-05-2007, 18:15
Would be a shame to lose all the old characters, but to be fair the days of the old guard appear to have gone anyway. Either way, I'll still pop my head in from time to time.
:spin:
the-small-print
01-05-2007, 18:49
I think Dakota makes some very good points. I have quite recently made 2 new characters and have been playing them enough for it to be rewarding that they are getting into the middle levels. I can imagine, for those who have just recently reached lvl 7-10 with their first chars, to be knocked back to zero would just drive them away.
I do see the appeal of a server wipe, in that it's great to be able to go up to new players or chars you've never seen before and find out about them, particularly if you already have your RP sorted. Kind of like nostalgia for the good old days in a way....
I'd support this in a more definite way if there were some fundamental (and probably very work- and time-intensive) changes to the server, so that it felt like new. A mass of new low level quests, and possibly some fundamental changes in the building system, e.g. a bunch of prestige classes (Heru Cumahtar! You know you want it!) and a more ME-tilted magic theme (physically more capable casters with fewer and more subtle spells). Since I've made so many new chars recently, I've become tired of repeating low level quests and losing my memory each time of what's to come, simply because I know them too well, and also it would be really nice if some quests had elements that focused on other skills than melee fighting, so that in order to make the most of the quest you'd need a versatile party with more varied skill than any one character could possess
Though it's taken me all the time I've been on the server - which is nearly a year - to level my highest char up to lvl. 15, I find she's now stuck in the gap between medium-levellers who are too low to party with and epics who do quests that would prove very expensive in raises for whoever went with her - if it wasn't for the fact that there's always one person in the epic party who's a level too high so you can't join :( - and is too poorly built to be able to solo anything.
For these reasons, though I have spent so much time and effort in bringing her to where she is, and though she's possibly my favourite character, I wouldn't mind too much dropping her in level so I could use her again, if it wasn't for the fact that I'd go mad doing all the low level quests again.
Beh... you might have noticed... my mind's not made up yet. ¬_¬
I must admit that these are all very good arguments agaisnt the wipe... for those who have characters in mid-levels (10-15 or so), but no high-level ones, it could certainly be quite a disappointment.
I vote no, I have been on servers that have made Wipes and it almost never turn out in more then frustration. Though i am willing to start a new PC if there are new players around.
just my thought
Kyle Morgan
01-05-2007, 20:02
I agree to most arguments of "the-small-print".
If there were a systematical change to the server like different item guidelines or different rules for builds or magic i would understand, agree and comply a wipe. But without such i can ony see one effect: To get rid of all high levels in the server vault like a big equalizer.
Over the years i have started like a dozen characters and developed them - rp-wise as well as in their skills. Most of them are still in a process and i have only three charaters who have reached a point where i see them as being completed in a way (levels 5, 17, 22).
I do not have the time to do that again. If there is a wipe, i will quickly lose any chance to play with someone else, because i will only have low level characters in the future so i can only play with low level parties - even then when more active players can play in the medium and higher ranges again.
Hence i say No.
A character-wipe is a drastic change. If you do that, do not waste the chance to put important changes into the world.
I voted earlier today in favor for the wipe, now i'm sure that wasn't very smart of me. After reading further posts i'd like to retract my vote if it's possible. I'm too young of a player here to decide on such an important matter.
Alright, so..I've voted No.
- Reason is stated above in that me and my character just broke at lvl 10, and the figure of yet another batch of runthroughs in the lower level quests with the same character (Yeah, not quite willing to give her up so quickly :nono: ) doesn't quite appeal to me.
I can well understand what you wish to achieve, and other arguments voiced, but that's where I stand. :)
Bugger! Haste makes waste! Dont even have the excuse of Eqvinox of being a young player (here or literaly ;)) voted yes but am persuaded by arguments against the wipe and change my vote to no. Like Clone though I will be around wipe or no wipe.
Hmm.
I shall share my view on everything. (Like a brief history of space and time without involving space or time)
I joined MERP a long time ago, a loooonng time ago. I have had probably near to 50-60 characters, maybe 100 at a stretch. I have made so many characters its unbelievable, maybe its because I am the longest surviving player, maybe its because I am weird, who knows, or for that matter, particularly cares. But I have seen wipes on MERP, and survived through them all. From when we phased out lotrv3a in favour of an unnamed scratch made Middle Earth mod, to the change from UTT1 to UTT2. Each time we have a wipe, yes we have unfortunately lost some players, but in those times we have also gained players, ones who relish the prospect of a fresh beginning, not being underdogs from the get go as everyone else has had years to build their character.
I have lost high level characters, even level 40 characters, and it is a sting, but basing the reason to continue playing on your characters power seems rather silly to me. This is a roleplay server, no one can take influence, history or reknown away from a character, any more than it can be taken away from a real life historical figure. The characters will go down in MERP history, and if you wish, you will still continue that characters name, but give them an entirely new set of stories, with new names still seeking to gain that same reknown others revel in.
To say a fresh start would end so many stories is wrong, this is not an ending, but an opportunity, one to be grabbed and used in the way its intended.
To that end, my vote is Yes.
Perhaps I am wrong, but that shall remain to be seen.
Dakota Strider
01-05-2007, 21:44
If there are high level characters you have that have not been active for months, then yes, a wipe would not hurt any of the storylines he/she may have once been a part of. However, for those of us that have put in months, or longer to get characters to where they are, and are still very active with them, and have them involved in numerous plotlines with various other characters, putting them back to 1st level will kill many stories, or put them on hold for months and months untill they can re-continue them. Once again, I see no reason, why if players want to have new characters, why it bothers them, if other players continue to play their veteran characters. Since this is a RP server, nothing says that a 1st level character cannot interact with a level 20 character. It happens all the time as it is now. If we want to force everyone to start another level one character, and play them for a week or two to see if that boosts server attendance, thats fine with me. I think it won't improve things personally. What will improve things, if old players come back, either with veteran characters or new ones. Doing that will increase the server numbers, and make it much more likely that new players looking for a server, will stop by and give us a try. Noone wants to play on an empty server. So, if you want to improve attendance, make yourself seen. The numbers will follow.
Thanks for your votes and opinions.
There will not be a vault wipe.
However, we will encourage (it's still cool if people dont) new characters in order to help us attract - and keep new players.
There will be a massive initiative of boosting our potential playerbase for UTT2 (without sacrificing the audience the module is aimed at). This process will begin, effective immediately. Expect some rolling changes very shortly.
I have to say that originally I thought a wipe wouldn't be that bad, but the more I've thought about the more convinced I am it could be a very bad idea.
As I've already stated I don't have the time to put into characters anymore, but as things stand now I have a character appropriate for just about any group. And for me, and I presume everyone else, its not to do with the power of my high level characters but the time I've put into them.
I fully supported the character wipe from UTT1 to UTT2, and if this was a similar situation I would support one again - however it isn't the same at all. I agree there is a lot mroe low level content than there was when I started Lolinus on day 1 of UTT2, but with around 30 character across the two factions I've seen most of it, and really don't have the time, or to be honest the inclination, to go through it all again. I now only create new characters if I don't already have someone at an appropriate level for the players on the server, howeverI don't find the low level quests involving enough to want to have to go through them again with my favourite characters - they are very good introductory quests, but those of us with high level characters don't really need introductory quests anymore, even if we have to starts from day 1 again.
Edit: Kev posted as I posted this. Heh.
VeruMontanum
02-05-2007, 00:22
Dakota is right and even though I don't play nwn anymore and am unlikely to in the near future, I still care very much for this community and am glad that you've decided against a server wipe, Kev.
Personally, if I start as a noob on a server, I see mid and high level characters as an inspiration and also a great opportunity to initiate RP for my character eg apprenticeship like many of us already do. And there is probably no bigger motivating factor to stay on a server than just knowing that there are players that stay on a server for months or years building an epic character with such rich backgrounds like dakota, johanna, small print and cindi (just to name a few).
And pretty much everything else has already been mentioned.
Oh and hello everyone :)
DM_Yavanna
02-05-2007, 01:44
I voted against a wipe. I think we don't need one to get the server populated again. I, for one, will help as I can with more active DMing and events. In fact, with reference to Silverleaf's comment about no DME's except Validriel's summits, please see http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php?t=307770 , which I posted yesterday.
Kev writes:
If we continued with the existing characters but also encouraged everyone to create at least 1 new character - what would your thoughts be on that?This seems a good compromise. I'm certainly prepared to make a new PC to help out with newbie partying.
LongEarMage
02-05-2007, 02:32
While I haven't been here for a while (which will hopefully change over the summer) I've seen what a vault wipe can do to an established server and I say go ahead with it. I know on another world all of the characters were wiped and that helped us rediscover the world.
It'll be a good thing for everyone, IMHO. :)
Nob leaned back in the tall grass on the East Hill next to Bree, washing back the last bit of a butter biscuit with a sip of cold milk from a tin cup.
“Wouldn’t it be grand to live for a very, very long time, like the elves, Miss Trista, with birthdays one after another for ages and ages, with ne’er an end?”
Miss Trista wrinkled her nose as she thought for a moment, then answered. “I rather think not, Mr Nob. There’s just something that seems a bit... wearying... about going on far beyond a hobbit’s normal years. I’d come to fret that one would find oneself telling the same couple hundred stories over and over again, bringing dreadful boredom to even one’s best of friends. And riddles -- you know old Mr Gamfield is fond of saying that there are fewer than two thousand two-hundred riddles worth a hobbit’s ever telling, and one as old as him can know them all. And, well, perhaps even the taste of Miss Pansy’s myrtleberry pie might grow tiresome after so many helpings over so many years.”
Mr Nob took a deep breath, as if the extra oxygen might help him comprehend the notion of so many years that even myrtleberries wouldn’t taste as sweet.
“Not that I’m one for hobbits’ lives that are ended even a minute too soon," Trista quickly added. "But when they’ve got on to the right number of years, I think they just know that they can, without worry, trust the world to much younger hobbits -- the ones with new tales not yet told. So long as there are always a goodly number of little Boffins and Burrows, Tooks and Tanglefeet coming up in new generations, I figure that all will be well.”
“Perhaps you’re right,” said Nob thoughtfully, “perhaps you’re right.”
Silverleaf
02-05-2007, 14:21
I, for one, will help as I can with more active DMing and events. In fact, with reference to Silverleaf's comment about no DME's except Validriel's summits, please see http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php?t=307770 , which I posted yesterday.
Grand Yavanna, very happy! I'll try and join in if I can if I have the appropriate character. :) I'm still convinced though that more events need to take place, or generally more DM interaction. Even simple things like possessing a kid offering information for a gold peace, or a bartender talking to a gruff dwarf adds to the atmosphere.
Currently, how many active DMs are there?
But let us make some new characters all. I was about to anyway after its setled. For i have tried to have even spread and my lowest one, Olwin Heatherhill, a mailman extraordinary has grown bit too old. Perhaps one wishing to join Tharbad yemanry :)
I will ask this; What has changed about the module where the present characters 'live'? Is the time scale of the mod going to change? Are we going to move it further into the war of the ring? Are there suddenly a stack of new areas that herald some profound change in the way the module works? If this is not the case then why should everything change for the characters? Some have plots associated with them that require skills that they would no longer have were they to be remade.
I take the veiw that a change with Wireplay should have no bearing on what happens with UTT2. If anything, things would be better if the module was veiwed as a constant within the current changes. As you all know I'm a bit of a stickler for rp ;) and for me any character that is effectively cut off and re-levelled or merely forgotton is akin to an unfinished book or any work with its subplots unexplored.
I have repeatedly pointed out to people that there are no objections to low lvl characters roleplaying with high lvl characters (partying and questing with being quite another issue) so, if this is not an issue, then what purpose can the 'level playing field' of everyone having new characters hope to achieve? Unless there is the 'I've got an uber character so I don't talk to lowbies' attitude to contend with. And my experience is that UTT2 players are mature enough to have outgrown this some time ago.
So, I guess my choice is no. But I would be intrigued to hear further arguements 'for' within the context of the above.
Kyle Morgan
05-05-2007, 15:36
I will give one argument for a wipe although i voted against and still do.
Everyone with a range of characters puts energy and efforts in all those characters, the low levels as well as the high levels - probably more into the medium and higher range of characters because they have made associations friends and enemies aleady.
Given the chance of a wipe you cannot put your energy and time into those anymore, but if you are willing to contribute time and energy continuously into the server you have only one choice: To build new stoylines and characterplots or even rebuild ones of your pasttimes.
Of course i can always build a new character and i have low levels that i play occasionally. After a wipe we would all meet together in the starting areas and build new alliances - driven by force. There would just be nothing else to do.
With the numbers of online players to find in the past weeks, someone who enters the server would likely have to be alone for quite some time until meet someone else.
But that has not been different different two years ago when i joined the server. Hence a wipe would only have short term positive effects imho.
Regards
Kyle
Nightspell
07-05-2007, 04:15
I will give one argument for a wipe although i voted against and still do.
Everyone with a range of characters puts energy and efforts in all those characters, the low levels as well as the high levels - probably more into the medium and higher range of characters because they have made associations friends and enemies aleady.
Given the chance of a wipe you cannot put your energy and time into those anymore, but if you are willing to contribute time and energy continuously into the server you have only one choice: To build new stoylines and characterplots or even rebuild ones of your pasttimes.
Of course i can always build a new character and i have low levels that i play occasionally. After a wipe we would all meet together in the starting areas and build new alliances - driven by force. There would just be nothing else to do.
With the numbers of online players to find in the past weeks, someone who enters the server would likely have to be alone for quite some time until meet someone else.
But that has not been different different two years ago when i joined the server. Hence a wipe would only have short term positive effects imho.
Regards
Kyle
I quite agree. Though I have difficulty with this topic, mostly because of my limited playing time. I think that there is a balance here of the pros and cons of this discussion. I agree with the possible wipe but I also think that it will be only a short term bennifit to the newcommers. How that will play out to the overall population and activity on the server will only be known with a wipe. Who can really say what the best course of action is? No one, really. Though I am concerned over the current plotlines being destroied by a char wipe. I don't know.
Just incase you chaps didn't know, the poll closed and we decided not to wipe last week :)
Kyle Morgan
08-05-2007, 01:09
hehe -
me loves arguing
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