View Full Version : Concerning Familiars *gee sounds familiar*
InVinoVeritas
25-07-2007, 19:15
Those of you I’ve been adventuring with must know - or guess - that I’m not a huge fan of familiars - NWN D&D default familiars that is. I bet you’ve guessed now SNarfel didn’t you? *grins impishly*. Well here goes the idea for my next character:
Black Numenorean Sorcerer
All clad in black, wielding a rune-engraved great sword, his voice freezes everyone around him instantly like cold-winter-storm and then =>> from behind of his back pops out his familiar =>> no other than Mr.Butterfly!!!!<==
2nd story
Rivendell. Guests are sat at the table. Lord Elrond and Erestor along with many high-ranking elves are present. A player’s Eyeball (named Imnotfromthisfairytale Sorry (Sorry being The Eyeball’s surname) is seen closing in to the table with slimy lips. One of the elves notices it.
A minion of darkness is upon us! Kill it elves! - *he screams!*
*player stands up and says* Look ! Calm down you guys! It’s only my pet alright and it’s hungry - give it some lembas!
*GRINS IMPISHLY*
I bet you follow where I’m coming from right now. Sorcerer familiars are completely and utterly un-ME setting. Ranger familiars are more like it: wolves, badgers etc. The only sorcerer familiar acceptable I’d say would be: Raven but then every sorcerer would have to choose Raven upon character creation and that would be dull and boring.
My character Unen - in his career as a sorcerer (well vagabond type as he describes himself) has used his familiar only 3 times - and all of them when other players weren’t around - and couldn’t see him. I didn’t want to ruin someone else’s game experience
By summoning my panther (which is much better a familiar in terms of ME setting in comparison with let’s say - faerie dragon or…ice mephit or …I could go on and on…hehe).
My solution as follows:
- modify the class and erase/ disable - summon familiar feat for sorcerers once and for all (modify - custom scripts can be found in nwn vault)
- if it’s impossible by scripting then modify every new sorcerer character a player creates - at least those above let’s say lvl 3.
- replace - sorcerer’s summon familiar feat with - ranger’s summon familiar feat
- in case of disabling the feat - replace it with some other (low lvl feat)
you can disable the class skill - summon familiar feat - and replace it with a summoning item - usable only by sorcerers…(easy to script => nwn default scripts)
I’m sorry for my prejudice against sorcerer familiars but I couldn’t help myself and it upsets me a lot when I see somebody kicking around with a pixie or a fire-breathing dog - something you wouldn’t normally read about in Prof.Tolkien’s books.
I’m not a Tolkien-geek but I know that much and even thought the movie and this server are not exactly the same as the books - they’re great representations of Prof’s work nevertheless! Bottomline - I’d rather do away with my familiar (as I have been doing) and be weaker (and not solo any quests) then have this crap talking panther around which can be fed everytime it gets hurt - it’s always hungry heh (especially when it’s hurt). Similar story concerning creature you can summon…That’s why I chose a school of magic that doesn’t allow me to conjure - settled once and for all. But I bet that You - the dev team could do something about this issue - a simple modification would do - and you could find a solution as you know much more about the technical side of things then the rest of us players.
I bet you’ve guessed now SNarfel didn’t you? *grins impishly*.
Yes I have been waiting a while now for this post *chuckles*.
I second your suggestions and would ideally like to see ME developed in the direction as outlined re familiars. Our community has really improved by leaps and bounds on friendly, polite and patient self management, and I don’t see this as a big issue in game so long as all play is considerate of others enjoyment also. Still, there is nothing like just taking the temptation away if enough are in agreement ;).
If nothing else I thing at the very least it is time Podo’s familiar was changed in Bree, I think it sets a bad example and slightly spoils an otherwise excellent area.
InVinoVeritas
26-07-2007, 14:23
Hey I just found a useful familiar hak you'd like to replace the D&D one with more ME - inclined familiar hack. There are owls, rats, and hawks and many other - but I think the script can be easily modified to include other animals as well. Here's the link:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Hakpaks.Detail&id=2351
But - personally I'd rather do away with this feat and have it erased. I wonder what other players and Dev Team think about it? Obviously this is only a suggestion - Bosses decide ! *grins impishly*
Frankly, I do not like this idea of familiars at all, but hey, I AM a Tolkien geek. I'd like to see that only Beornings could have familiars, and maybe woodelves. But I also think that this is not a really big issue concerning the game. If someone in your party uses a familiar you think is not suitable for ME just ignore it (if someone orders his fire-breathing familiar to attack you, it's much harder to just ignore it :)).
InVinoVeritas
26-07-2007, 14:58
You're absolutely right Jarmov - my perspective down to the bones - and I'm not a Tolkien geek - lol - but I think I understand what this world is about. But we haven't heard from the Dev team yet - they make decisions. It would be much easier to disable/erase this feat altogether and allow only for ranger's summons - which are certainly more justifiable and ME-like. To compensate for the lost feat - alertness for instance or some other low-lvl feat - could be given in return.
the-small-print
26-07-2007, 15:04
Agreed, for the most part. I generally only use my peoples' animal companions/familiars as messengers, and for roleplay purposes. Being able to possess them makes them a thousand times more useful in this way, since my one character's raven can then spy out the ground ahead or carry messages, whereas my two other chars who have wolves (which I know is not strictly canon, since they are goodies, but I happen to like wolves, and they both have very high animal emp.) only occasionally have the chance to speak through the companion's voice, since about 90% of the time this simply dosen't work. *sigh*
I even don't like the idea that my ranger has a familiar.
* the-small-print *
I like your way to use your raven. It is very plausible and suitable for M-E.
InVinoVeritas
26-07-2007, 16:29
Haha I think the 4 of us has the same idea on this issue - I don't like any familiars / creatures you can conjure via spells. Possesing for rp - purposes mentioned by small print is nice but then again - every sorcerer would be bound to choose raven as his familiar heh as I mentioned above.
Sonic Youth
26-07-2007, 17:04
I totally agree.
The ranger familiars would be acceptable but I think a replacement feat would be more appropriate.
I agree with the above. As it stands, familiars are mostly unused, since the players are conscious enough to understand their alienness to the setting. If they can actually be replaced with something useful yet true to the setting, it would be a benefit to the players.
Thanks for the input everyone.
This has caught our eye and we will look at resolving the issues as soon as we can. We have some pretty big plans afoot, so expect this to be thrown in to the mix.
Do keep discussing your thoughts.
InVinoVeritas
26-07-2007, 17:46
Thanks Dm_Kev - you're welcome in MY thread ==> *grins impishly*<==
The latest Order of the Stick has a joke about familiars. Makes a good point, I think.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html
Heh, perfect timing. Aye it portraits the ridicule of some of the familiars.
As for my vote on this, i think that good and neutral sorcerors should be able to choose only the Bat, Panther and Raven, and i fail to see anything out-of-place about these animals. Of course one can choose to not use it.
Evils could have the Hellhound and Imp, because, why not ? It would be easier to fit these two to the ME setting, than Mephits, Dragons and Eyeballs.
Some people use summons, more don't. I think that whatever you're able to RP enough to make it credible [and fitting the setting] - it goes. And if you can't, better not use it.
I think that whatever you're able to RP enough to make it credible [and fitting the setting] - it goes. And if you can't, better not use it.
AYE!
InVinoVeritas
03-08-2007, 15:10
Sure but most familiars don't - pseudo dragon? eyeball? fearie? god knows what else...Ranger familiars are better though...
Dakota Strider
03-08-2007, 15:29
Many good points, so I would like to touch on one other point that I have not seen brought up in regard to familiars/animal companions, but namely from the ranger perspective. If a ranger uses this feat, when travelling alone (which is actually very valid rp-wise, for a ranger to do) he/she loses xp during encounters. Rangers get this feat as opposed to the extra weapon's feats a fighter gets, or the extra "holy" feats a paladin gets, but only they are penalized for using a feat. If companions are kept, I would like to see it fixed that xp is not reduced for using them. For the most part, I do not mind seeing ranger/druid animal companions. I would prefer that rangers would have a more useful feat, or better spells instead of a companion in the ME setting, but we are stuck with the D&D 3.0 system for the most part and have to work within it.
InVinoVeritas
03-08-2007, 17:17
Good point Dakota, I'm not a familiar enthusiast myself. Better to do away with summon familiar feats altogether - instead use Animal Empathy to attract animals. It would be nice if builders placed a few friendly animal spawns in the module (a bit more powerful than boar / stag => bear <= for instance) which could be tamed (with animal empathy) and taken along on an adventure. And I can tell you now that It feels pretty useless to have this feat as a sorcerer and not being able to make use of it because it doesn't fit with the setting. If it could be somehow compensated for with a different -> low lvl <- feat like alertness for instance...Sorcerer - are perceptive.
Sonic Youth
03-08-2007, 17:19
How about summon a horse instead of other familiars?
But perhaps the horse could be faster than regular horses and have more HP.
IMHO the logical feat swap would be to replace the summon familiar/companion feat with Uncanny dodge. Any animal companions a ranger or druid wishes to have they can tame through using the skill on wandering bears/boars etc.
*edit*
Damn you Vino! Stealing my ideas before i'v even posted them!
I agree Dakota that companion xp penalty does seem unfair but I see it from a slightly different perspective. The server aims to maintain as authentic a Tolkien world as possible while keeping as many of the classes playable within its resource capabilities(ie changing them to be more fitting to Middle earth). As such Wizard class is called sorcerer and magic has been tinkered with to at least lessen its more overt/powerful uses. This I think is a good thing as Wizards and magic are quite subtle in Middle Earth compared to D&D.
If the same approach is taken with familiars and companions, rather than making ranger companions give normal xp I think there should be no such companions at all (exception being a wolf, rp'd as a dog). Instead they should be compensated with a more Middle Earth themed feat. If this is not what the community wishes for, ie they want to keep familiars/companions, then my second choice would be to keep the penalties as they are, for at least this way there is an xp cost to introducing a non middle earth concept in to the play and most players will think twice about it.
Even now, I often see familiars and companions summoned when there is no need for it, ie the party is strong enough to do what it needs to do without them. I think allowing full xp from kills with a companion in party would be counter productive to the aims of the server.
Having said that, the server is of course nothing without its community and I am sure if enough folks really want the companion xp to be 100% the admin team will look favourably on this.
I like Sonics and Invino's suggestions very much! much more middle earth themed.
Steve-Law
03-08-2007, 17:37
I agree that an overuse of familiars and companions will detract from our setting and are easy to use badly (even though we've all seen them used very well), but how about we concentrate on replacing the current ones with some we think are more suitable and role-playable? The hawk is a perfect example, but would soon lose it appeal/impact if every ranger had a hawk companion with no other option.
We could also include some that are more suitable for some races and not others (and we could add such in the description (maybe)).
We don't have to just choose "powerful" creatures, start with the premise that we are only really using them to RP and we could have small kittens and puppies and such like thrown into the options. :) (It would also emphasise the point that these are seen mostly as RP aids/tools and not as weapons of mass destruction.) (Yes, okay, I admit it, Rufus has always had terrier envy ;) )
I am probably wrong, I only started looking at class modifications briefly and some time ago, but I believe it is much easier to replace the actual familiars/companions than to replace the actual feat (especially where it is a starting feat as with sorcerers).
I would add that I do think it is more appropriate for Druids to have actual animal companions than Rangers. I also strongly agree that we could do with bears and other such creatures that could be empathised and used that way (but even then I would feel this was more appropriate for druid than ranger (in our setting)).
InVinoVeritas
03-08-2007, 17:43
Cause replacing familiars would be more difficult to script than disabling the feat altogether. Well the script I found on Nwnvault could be used to customise familiars ->look above to find the link<- but then again - every other character on the server posesses the summon familiar feat in some way. Rangers / Sorcerers / Druids...don't forget that some characters multiclass...it's just too many mate LOL. You can't walk 10 yards without trippin' over a pet hhehe
But I agree with you - small pets like kittens - the ones you can find in Minas Tirith - Magic Shop...sweet...sweet....great idea...But cats - could be used as trap detectors....- former pixies (obviously - not traps disarming tools or pick-lockin' tools heh!)
Steve-Law
03-08-2007, 17:49
Its not just a matter of disabling them you (we ... this thread) are also talking about replacing them, and that involves tinkering with base classes.
the-small-print
03-08-2007, 18:01
...But cats - could be used as trap detectors....- former pixies (obviously - not traps disarming tools or pick-lockin' tools heh!)
*cough*
Have you ever tried to get a cat to do what you want?
InVinoVeritas
03-08-2007, 18:05
I think familiars we're talkin' about are not just ordinary animals but animals with a bit of intelligence, animals with shining - but still animals. Animals that become very close friends with people/elves and other creatures and their owners learn how to read their instincts. A cat's trap detection ability could be attributed to its fine senses. Read - Edgar Allan Poe's The Black Cat - that's what I'm talkin' about. I think this story and this sort of cat fits perfectly with the setting. Read it and see for yourselves.
Steve-Law
03-08-2007, 18:06
*cough*
Have you ever tried to get a cat to do what you want?
heh
Kittens!!!
Meow!
'nuff said ;)
Dakota Strider
03-08-2007, 22:11
I am all for replacing the animal companion with a feat, but not just disabling the feat and not getting anything as compensation. I don't believe a replacement feat is nearly as important for a mage, because in this setting, the Wizard(Sorceror) class becomes very powerful without it. It does make more sense for a druid to have it as a ranger, and you can blame Rangers having them at all, on the Drizzit'ization of the class. But because Rangers have lost other abilities they used to have before the AD&D 2nd edition rules, and had it replaced with a animal, to take it away would weaken the class too much in my opinion. As for a recommendation of what feat should replace it, I would be in favor of heavy armor. In our setting, it makes little sense that the Dunedain are all lightly armored, finesse weapon wielding "warriors". Aragorn wore heavy armor on occassions. As it is now, you will see very few rangers that are single classed on the server; I think this is because most people do not see the class being able to stand on its own.
I might remind that Tolkien seems to suggest some animals are more intelligent in Midlle-Earth. Like fox wondering about lone hobbits, Old Trush, ravens, and so forth.
So natural animals can easily be seen acting in intelligent way in my mind. It is trouble with all the magic familiars, and some of them can be used creatively.
But would be nice if summoned animals and pets would ne themed bit more northernly fauna. Like lunx, instead of panther and so on.
Generally i seen good play with summon, but is bit easy to use them too much. Quite a minot sin, though.
but is bit easy to use them too much. Quite a minot sin, though.
I disagree, over use of familiars and companions changes the atmosphere of the server and the challange of encounters. It can be most irritating in that sense, why use them if you dont need to and if they are generally not accepted as a staple of Middle Earth?
Dakota Strider
03-08-2007, 23:13
I disagree, over use of familiars and companions changes the atmosphere of the server and the challange of encounters. It can be most irritating in that sense, why use them if you dont need to and if they are generally not accepted as a staple of Middle Earth?
Well, I guess it depends on what you feel is "need" compared to what someone else does. If a character uses a companion in certain circumstances, because its necessary for survival, would it not be bad rp for the character to "keep it in his pocket" just because he was around other characters? If a player goes about rping their companion well, it should not be a detriment to the atmosphere. Its the "pocket" companion, where you only pull it out as needed that I think is most harmful.
Sonic Youth
03-08-2007, 23:57
Sorry but I disagree with the heavy armour proposal.
I just dont see it as very... ranger like! Full plate wouldnt make sneaking around the woods very easy now would it! Or camping in the woods very comfortable for that matter!
A ranger that wants to wear plate should take heavy feat but I dont think its something all rangers should have.
(Also personally I think if you had to put aragorn into classes i'd say Ranger/Fighter, or perhaps even Ranger/Paladin but lets not get into one of those arguments hehehe...)
I suggested uncanny dodge just because it seems like the logical option to me - Its useful due to rangers generally wearing light to medium armour, (usually light as rangers lose some of their benefits when using medium or above armour) and its also not an overpowered feat.
But in saying that from the sounds of things it would involve tearing the nessesary classes apart which is a lot of effort for something they could probably solve with just a disabling script.
It would be far easier just to disable the summon familiar/animal companion and award rangers/druids/mages a token that grants a special ability once per day that also cannot be transferred.
Steve-Law
04-08-2007, 00:09
My "ranger" is paladin/ranger and wears heavy armour. He has no skill in hide or move silently. Not all rangers need to sneak about. He has points in spot and listen (need more in search).
I may be wrong, its been a long time since I read the books, but did Aragorn ever sneak about? A ME Ranger is surely more about tracking (spot, search) and nature lore (i.e. healing) than sneaking about. Isn't that all we know about Aragorn (our model in this)?
Although ... :offtopic:
Sonic Youth
04-08-2007, 00:50
The ilithien Rangers were certainly all about the light armour and sneaking around the woods. And i disagree about aragorn too! He does his little spiel about remaining unseen if needed to frodo (in the film anyway) in Bree.
Aragorn only really dons heavy armour in Return of the king when he's come back from being a Ranger (and become a fighter or paladin possibly).
Its down to how you take it I suppose.
Lets not get into a debate about this anyway as it'll quickly turn into an argument. Its all open to personal interpretation I suppose.
Anyway, It'll be up to the main men as to what happens with familiars.
It'd be nice to hear some opinions from DMs tho! And perhaps some more possibilities from other players?
Also - Recently we heard about Dunedain Ranger prestige class being added soon, so this might solve any ranger problems!
Lets not forget about Wizard and Druid tho!
I think Wizard's summon familiar is the least ME tho and the Druid's probably the most fitting.
So lets get some Wizard Ideas!
InVinoVeritas
04-08-2007, 01:04
Sonic you're right - this thread is turning into 'what feat could I be given in compensation for my lost summon familiar thread'...heh...Let's discuss what should we do with familiars - waste them or not. Well ultimately we're not doing anything with them - admins / builders will so let's not get too personal :help: I think the easiest way is to disable the feat and rely on Animal Empathy skill - it just makes sense. Sorcerers - sorcerers are a supporting caste even though they can become powerful they can never solo anything unlike fighters for instance or barbarians or multiclass rangers. At lvl 10 I die at a hobgoblin cave 5 lvls lower (quite the opposite if I summoned my crap talkin' panther) See my point? But I think the feat should be disabled for all the classes without exceptions. Only characters with high animal empathy would make bonds with an animal. Repulsive characters like - Necromancers can always use summon creature (skelly or zombie) and they make great rp familiars too...If a character will make bondings with a certain creature - a cat - he could be awarded by a dm - a special token (simple modification to the horse token)...There you go - easy to modify / script / implement and much more fittin' the settin'. See I don't think we do need anything fancy. We should always strive for the simplest of solutions and I think builders are doin' 300% of their norm right now anyway...Don't need anything fancy for now, but something simple that would improve the feel of the module - familiar-wise.
Steve-Law
04-08-2007, 07:34
Here's a possible solution that's even easier.
If you don't like familiars or companions, don't use them. Politely ask your party members not to use them or RP them away. If you see someone else use them inappropriately - send them a polite tell with constructive criticism or just ignore it, pretend it didn't happen, nothing to see here...
clone number 3
04-08-2007, 08:10
I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen a familiar used in a manner that was waaaaaaaay out of setting.
TBH I think the server is nerfed enough as it is and I would be against altering class abilities again. We're hamstrung a bit with the D&D rule set, which doesn't match the ME setting 100%, but surely this can be worked around by common sense rather than more rules/restrictions/nerfing?
As Steve says, if you don't like them don't use them. If you're in a party big enough to complete the quest, don't summon them.
:dancin:
One issue is that most familiars selectable for wizards are so unfitting to the setting that noone ever selects them. The end result is that we see the same familiars all over the place. Panthers or ravens, usually.
The other is that "not using it", while an option, is not exactly a good one, since there's nothing to compensate.
How to best solve it is another matter.
Ranger companions in the vast majority of cases our standard of rp manages to work around and I would be for retaining. Wizard familiars (and I take my buddy The Clones point about the server being nerfed :P) I would rather see away with. Off with their heads!
Wizard familiars (and I take my buddy The Clones point about the server being nerfed ) I would rather see away with. Off with their heads!
As long as you give any wizard a cute kitten familiar for free instead (1hp, no special or magical abilities), I don't think anyone will mind. ;)
As for evils, well... let them keep the bat. Just defang it.
Steve-Law
04-08-2007, 12:28
Bat or rat or cat.
(Said Sam-I-Am ;) )
InVinoVeritas
04-08-2007, 14:28
bat or rat or a cat or a - HAMSTER
Nolėtįro
15-08-2007, 22:40
I think that whatever you're able to RP enough to make it credible [and fitting the setting] - it goes. And if you can't, better not use it.
Ok. After this opening quote by a fellow player (which I entirely agree with, of course), time for my view on the matter.
In what concerns the choices of familiars for sorcerers, I believe, as someone who has studied Tolkien for quite some time and has been playing NWN from the day it got onto the shelves, that all familiars except the Faerie Dragon and the Eyeball can be used perfectly well without hindering the Eä ambience. These two familiars simply do not comply with the rules of Eä, period.
Yet each familiar has it's own grade of difficulty of credibility. The easiest is, I reckon, the raven (or hawk, I always mix them =_=), and the hardest, the pseudodragon. This grade of difficulty can be measured in a few aspects:
*How it would fit the alignment;
*How it would fit the character/culture;
*Reason of existence.
I will go through all familiars, and adress their difficulties;
Easiest* - Raven - Perfectly simple and easy to teach and train by any alignment, ravens are used as messengers and scouts for almost everyone beneath the Sun, and are most known to be used by Dwarves, namely those of Erebor (as seen in The Hobbit). There is absolutely no difficulty in using such a familiar for RPing purposes; However, given the animal's nature, rushing into battle would be reserved probably to those most faithful sods.
*EDIT: Bats - Fall into the same category. As any animal, they are not evil by default, they just have the fame.
Normal - Panther - More difficult to use effectively, it is a familiar purely combat-oriented. Their presence in the West would have to be well explained (they could be found in the jungles of the far South and East), believable and detailed. Players connected to Sauron would find an easier way of explaining a panther's presence; a captured specimen from the realms of the East Sauron controls?
Hard - Mephits And Hell Hounds - Oh Christ. These are TOUGH to use. Useable in both the battlefield and in RPing purposes, it should be reserved for those that hold enough knowledge of Middle-earth and the way spirits and "magic" act. ALL summons also fit into this category, since the calling of spirits was, and is, common amongst those with deeper connections to the subtleties of the Song (a self-given name that I employ instead of the Forgotten Realms' Weave), especially to those that have deep connections to the Valar or Sauron, the remaining Dark Lord (Clerics). These spirits are much, much lesser versions of Maiar, the "footsoldiers" of the Ainur in Arda. They embody the most various things in the life of Arda, from nature spirits to fire, to water (Bruinen would have to be commanded by a spirit, since not even an Elf as powerful as Elrond is Ainu or powerful enough to direct a whole stream. And before you bring up the dam argument, drop it, Elves are too fond of rivers and streams to keep their flow imprisoned. To them, it's like blocking an artery of the world) to even phantoms (Oathbreakers, anyone?), shade-men or barrow wights, and could be said to empower the usage of certain "spells". They are Good or Evil-aligned, depending on the spirit called upon and the caller's own skill. Hell-Hounds and Mephits can be played as evil spirits embodied to serve Sauron himself or his sorcerer servants.
Harder - Pixie - Fits into the above, yet with a different quirk - since pixies here can pass for "seelies", they could find companionship with those Good-aligned people. Yet, as particularly unique nature spirits (as I call them, I am not absolutely grasping the definition given to them by the developers, have to check it again sometime), they would be rather independent and unwilling to leave the boundaries of their places of birth. High detail should go into this.
Hardest - Pseudodragon - As any reader of The Silmarillion would know, the flying dragons were created by Morgoth late into the First Age, and were first used in the War of Wrath, where they were utterly defeated and scattered.
The nature of Tolkien dragons is very, very vague, except in the fact that they are the uttermost evil Morgoth could throw at their enemies without using Balrogs. Glaurung, first of the Dragons, was wingless and terrible in sheer power of will, being inhabited by a powerful spirit (Piece it together; If Melkor the Fallen Vala could only imitate life and never create it, he would have to either corrupt a most noble and ancient creature, which is unlikely, or torture a spirit into becoming a dragon, which is the much more likely scenario. From two spirits tortured in such a manner, he would be able to spawn an entire race without actually creating something from nothing ala Eru). As such, their breeding processes would have to be very slow and rigidly controlled by Melkor, only Ainu to know of such things.
The birth of a pseudo-dragon is, thus, a very faint chance. Added to the fact that dragons are downright extinct at the end of the Third Age, you would have to come up with a very good plot in order to get away with it. Unless it was a cold pseudo-dragon; In that case, it would be relatively easy to figure out a way to get one. Fire-breathing ones, though? Think what you will, it MUST be dead by the end of the Third Age and NOT be developed into "adulthood". It would contradict Tolkien way too much.
And that is my say in the matter. Hope this thesis might be of use to all RPers of Middle-earth settings. Note that, as a "Tolkien Geek" (I prefer the term Loremaster, myself :P ), I would highly discourage the use of familiars AND summons. This thesis merely seeks to bring balance between playability and general accuracy.
PS: Wolves are not automatically evil animals, they simply got that fame because of Sauron's extensive use of them throughout his existence. Wolves are basically his signature animal. Everyone has one. :P And that should pretty much cover animal companions (which, I think, have no issues whatsoever with immersion except, of course, common sense and a half-decent plot)
Silverleaf
15-08-2007, 22:51
Don't forget to be original with Familiars... For example, Dom.Nik's wizard T'asha Finn uses a Hell Hound named "Black Beast of Frogmorton." Not that you should use that, but be creative. Not every mage has to have a bat, raven, panther or wolf.
Another case of creativity is my wizard. He uses a raven named "Messenger Raven." Not used for combat at all, this helpful raven can be possessed and used to deliver messages to PCs. Great for roleplay. :)
Nolėtįro
15-08-2007, 22:57
Precisely what I meant with the starting quote. The thesis I just posted concerns the base of familiars, not the very plots that run them. That's up to the players to decide, and the DMs to judge.
InVinoVeritas
15-08-2007, 23:18
Enlighten me Tolkienites! *grins impishly* I read a Silmarillion a few years ago and few other Tolkien books but I don't think I came across any references regarding pseudo-dragons / pixies / eyeballs and other such creatures. Maybe my memory is vague well I'm here to seek your advice and if you could give me specific cross-references / quotations from JRR's books regarding the above mentioned magical beings please do go ahead. I don't think they're even hard / harder or hardest to roleplay - IMO - they're unacceptable / impossible / out of place here.
Prove me wrong please :). It's not only about imagination, it's about The ME ambience like you said Noletaro. I agree - there are 1 or 2 familiars which would fit with the setting: raven, bat perhaps (creature highly unlikely to become attached to anybody in my opinion...) but the rest I find unacceptable. I've got a sorcerer. I've got a familiar too. I've used it perhaps 4 times since I started my character and my character is lvl 11. Why haven't I used it? Because it sux and I don't want to ruin others game-experience.
One more thing. Seems like everyone have ravens these days due to lack of sensible alternative.
When I think about familiars / pets ordinary creatures spring to my mind: horses, cats, dogs and certainly not pseudo-dragons. Pseudo-dragon *snarls* what kinda name is that? Was someone nuts when they were doin' this game? Doesn't even sound like a proper D&D name, this name is even below D&D (hit rock-bottom).
Nolėtįro
15-08-2007, 23:31
I have already provided a significant list of what makes those familiars believable in the setting. If I could provide actual quoting, believe me, I would (I own not any English version of Tolkien's work, much to my everlasting shame =_=).
Of course, I do not adress them specifically by their names. Pseudo-dragons are obviously wee youngling dragons. At least I see them that way and assumed as such as I wrote my ideas. Same thing goes for pixies; they have equal characteristics to creatures known as "seelie" in the server, and I adressed them as such, not as pixies specifically. Do not imply that everything you see in character sheets or above speech bubbles above the heads must be real; Pseudo-dragon is nothing but a name to me. A lame one, as you pointed out. And any self-respecting RPer would never heed to metagaming information such as Pseudo-dragon hovering in a creature's race title at the character sheet.
I also cathegorized them as easy-hard according to my own ideas of how difficult it would be to explain one's presence.
Plus, you must understand 100% accuracy to Tolkien would ruin much, if not all, of the game's fun. I would want it as much as anyone, but as I said, a balance between playability and accuracy is key to the success of a Middle-earth player world in NWN.
InVinoVeritas
15-08-2007, 23:35
I have already provided a significant list of what makes those familiars believable in the setting. If I could provide actual quoting, believe me, I would (I own not any English version of Tolkien's work, much to my everlasting shame =_=).
Of course, I do not adress them specifically by their names. Pseudo-dragons are obviously wee youngling dragons. At least I see them that way and assumed as such as I wrote my ideas. Same thing goes for pixies; they have equal characteristics to creatures known as "seelie" in the server, and I adressed them as such, not as pixies specifically.
I also cathegorized them as easy-hard according to my own ideas of how difficult it would be to explain one's presence.
Plus, you must understand 100% accuracy to Tolkien would ruin much, if not all, of the game's fun. I would want it as much as anyone, but as I said, a balance between playability and accuracy is key to the success of a Middle-earth player world in NWN.
Alright wise-guy :) no need for quotations, just gimme directions where to search for these creature. Quotations from original JRR's books. Supply me only with page nrs please. And no I'm not in favour of too much realism but a balance must be struck. Right now (with such creatures - familiars on the loose) the ME settin' / ambience is suffering I think.
Moreover gimme 1 example of an ME hero / heroine who'd have such a creature for a pet. Gandalf had Shadowfax (horse) mind you. Says somethin' about pets already don't it? There isn't 1 ME hero / heroine who'd have such a familiar and even if he had one - he / she would be of Gandalf's calibre - not common heroes / heroines - like us. We can acquire these creatures at lvl 1 same as at lvl 20 or 28.
To stop this entire nuisance I'm in favor of disabling wizard (sorcerer) feat entirely for all - which is both easy to apply and effective. Druid / ranger familiars as I said comply with the ME ambience so I have nothing against them. Hey - I'm a sorc myself so I'm riddin' myself of part of my power - but still I remain in favor.
Silverleaf
15-08-2007, 23:51
Well, there's an easy solution if you don't want to use your familiar. Don't use it. I have an orc bard who can cast spells. He doesn't. Why? I don't know too many orcs that cast magic, plus it's just rediculous to emote potions every time. But familiars are very helpful to low level wizards. Why not name your familiar something like "Summoned Hell Hound" or "Summoned Ice Mephit?" Since we have no objections against Summon Creature spells, this seems reasonable. :)
Silverleaf
15-08-2007, 23:55
I'm just trying to appease you two, because I highly doubt a new hak will be put in with more options of familiars like cats, dogs etc, nor is it likely familiars will be disabled.
I fully agree on limiting things like imps and mephits, as they are not mentioned by Tolkien, however players following the Code of Conduct must remember to use roleplay common sense when creating their wizards. 'Nuff said?
InVinoVeritas
15-08-2007, 23:56
Well, there's an easy solution if you don't want to use your familiar. Don't use it. I have an orc bard who can cast spells. He doesn't. Why? I don't know too many orcs that cast magic, plus it's just rediculous to emote potions every time. But familiars are very helpful to low level wizards. Why not name your familiar something like "Summoned Hell Hound" or "Summoned Ice Mephit?" Since we have no objections against Summon Creature spells, this seems reasonable. :)
Easy one Silverleaf. I never soloed anythin' with my character and sure If you wanna lvl up alone then familiars are obligatory. Soloing a quest with your familiar buffed up to the max means no fun and is well boring and ridiculous. Secondy I've never used a summoned creature as well 'cause most of them don't comply with the setting too. Check this thread:
http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php?t=317210
Not the type of summoned creature - but the spell itself seems out of place. I like the idea of druid / ranger summoning based on animal empathy - this type of summoning I'm completely in favor of.
Even tho I was allowed a rebuild and now I can use 'summon' spells I don't 'cause in my eyes the game-experience suffers. I used my familiar like 4 times and never ever used a summon creature spell - 'cause it's simply ridiculous. The creature materialises from the air - just like Star Trek 'energize' gig!
My elf says 'this is Spock(pointy ears) energize!' and blimp! I got a friend! Animal empathy summoning tho is something really really nice - that's why druids rangers are handy.
Nolėtįro
16-08-2007, 00:01
I'm just trying to appease you two, because I highly doubt a new hak will be put in with more options of familiars like cats, dogs etc, nor is it likely familiars will be disabled.
I fully agree on limiting things like imps and mephits, as they are not mentioned by Tolkien, however players following the Code of Conduct must remember to use roleplay common sense when creating their wizards. 'Nuff said?I would say yes, but I am not finished on this matter. I know someone who can get me the English versions, I will have quite the decent list of quotations by tomorrow.
And for starters, Melkor himself had Charcharoth, technically and for all purposes a hell hound. Except the fire breath. :P
InVinoVeritas
16-08-2007, 00:05
I would say yes, but I am not finished on this matter. I know someone who can get me the English versions, I will have quite the decent list of quotations by tomorrow.
And for starters, Melkor himself had Charcharoth, technically and for all purposes a hell hound. Except the fire breath. :P
Melkor? Are you comparing us to a Vala? As I said we're ordinary heroes / heroines. We're not even heralds of gods like The Five or Sauron so this comparison is invalid.
Silverleaf
16-08-2007, 00:05
Even tho I was allowed a rebuild and now I can use 'summon' spells I don't 'cause in my eyes the game-experience suffers. I used my familiar like 4 times and never ever used a summon creature spell - 'cause it's simply ridiculous. The creature materialises from the air - just like Star Trek 'energize' gig!
Once again, creativity. :) Try something like walking over to a tree, whistling, offering some food and then cast the spell. Elementals could perhaps be (for clerics) an avatar of the Valar sent as a blessing.
InVinoVeritas
16-08-2007, 00:09
Once again, creativity. :) Try something like walking over to a tree, whistling, offering some food and then cast the spell. Elementals could perhaps be (for clerics) an avatar of the Valar sent as a blessing.
Mate please don't try to tell me that I lack imagination. I won't try to convince you that I do have one. Those people who know me a bit better - know that I do have imagination and it's inclined towards proper ME ambience. But tryin' to put a cheap spin on an out-of-place pet / summoned creature (just to bolster the group militarily too) an call it 'rp' in my eyes is ridiculous. :)
Nolėtįro
16-08-2007, 00:13
Mate please don't try to tell me that I lack imagination. I won't try to convince you that I do have one. Those people who know me a bit better - know that I do have imagination and it's inclined towards proper ME ambience. But tryin' to put a cheap spin on an out-of-place pet / summoned creature (just to bolster the group militarily too) an call it 'rp' in my eyes is ridiculous. :)
I agree wholeheartedly.
Do not also assume we lack imagination, young man.
Silverleaf
16-08-2007, 09:26
I do not presume you lack imagination, nor do I doubt that any of you don't have creative minds. If that were the case, then you'd all have boring characters. Having roleplayed with your characters however, I know this is not true. All I was doing was offering a few creative roleplay suggestions for some of the things you are complaining about. Now let me get started...
This is a Middle-Earth based server. It isn't Middle Earth. Using a Neverwinter Nights engine and quite a few custom haks including the all-famous CEP, the creators of UTT have managed to create a near-perfect setting for characters to play on. However, because it is a video game and not a book, it's not going to be 100% accurate to the book.
Here are some things we have in the module which aren't in any Tolkien Books...
- Dracoliches
- Weapons with visual effects
- Priests that can cast spells
- Sorcerers in abundance
- Kibil-Dum (Silverdelve)
- and a whole butt-load of adventurers who slay dragons and orcs and Free people in decent number every day. Surely Tolkien would've mentioned some of these?
I could go on, and I'm sure you could too. But if one person is going to get over-picky about Familiars, another could get over-picky about having a fictional mine in the module.
Yes, I fully agree that some of the NPCs familiars in the game should be changed. Yes I fully agree that *some* familiars are out of place. But adding a hak or changing the scripts of base classes for such a minor thing seems ridiculous to me.
Here's a possible solution that's even easier.
If you don't like familiars or companions, don't use them. Politely ask your party members not to use them or RP them away. If you see someone else use them inappropriately - send them a polite tell with constructive criticism or just ignore it, pretend it didn't happen, nothing to see here...
That just about sums it up for me.
InVinoVeritas
16-08-2007, 09:57
Yeah Silver I agree with you on this one. Please do not take my posts as criticisms of this server - which I think is great and amazing - but only as critism towards the nwn engine.
Some of the things you mentioned might seem to be a bit out of place but as far as I'm concerned I like all the game content found on this server and find it fittin' with the ME ambience perfectly.
In Concerning Familiars I'm talkin' about things that don't fit with the settin' - due to the game engine. The creators of this module didn't introduce these familiars into the settin' - the familiars were imposed upon them - and upon us /players/.
I'm not talkin' about haks. Haks are more difficult to apply and more difficult to find - yet I found one /with normal familiars/. I'm talkin' about disabling the feat altogether as well as some of the summon creature spells.
The ones I'd like to remain would be the ones that belong to the /summon school from necromancy/ for evil sorcerers. But otherwise summonin' a creature should remain unique for characters with Animal Empathy - like Druids or Ranger.
If you don't like familiars don't use them. Sure - but I always see 500 other players on the server using them in illegal ways. Dunedain summonin' spiders and kickin' around with shadow mastiffs. It's like tellin' an orc / goblin player that Forochel even though it's a neutral area is forbidden to them unless they travel in a company with a BN and stay away from the ice-men camp. My goblin character went to Forochel only once and then only 'cause he lead by a BN. So what that I was tryin' stick with the rules when /at the same time/ in Forochel I saw 2 trolls who were partied with us kickin' around the camp and chattin' to leonsen / gettin' supplies. And no - they weren't new players but established old players. See my point?
InVino, in case you didn't noticed, you have already been explained plenty of times, that there won't be a removal of Summon Familiar feat, because there is no need for it. Fellow players have already developed a way to use it properly, or have learned to not use them. Stop exhorting this, the topic is exhausted. Finito.
But tryin' to put a cheap spin on an out-of-place pet / summoned creature (just to bolster the group militarily too) an call it 'rp' in my eyes is ridiculous. :)
Now that i must comment, because it's very rude of you. You imply that anyone using summons is a cheap, ridiculous roleplayer in your eyes. You're derogating the skill of the elite roleplayers here, for which such a mundane task as summoning a familiar is almost an epic story, and certainly an important part of the character they're playing - not always a military boost. Familiars serve those who know how to use them, and i've seen but a few situations of introducing a summon [including elementals] - in each case it was very well played [and not a 'cheap spin'] - and i must say that i was inspired to use them myself. I beg your pardon for speaking openly, but i'm not surprised you're not using them yourself.
InVinoVeritas
16-08-2007, 11:13
InVino, in case you didn't noticed, you have already been explained plenty of times, that there won't be a removal of Summon Familiar feat, because there is no need for it. Fellow players have already developed a way to use it properly, or have learned to not use them. Stop exhorting this, the topic is exhausted. Finito.
Now that i must comment, because it's very rude of you. You imply that anyone using summons is a cheap, ridiculous roleplayer in your eyes. You're derogating the skill of the elite roleplayers here, for which such a mundane task as summoning a familiar is almost an epic story, and certainly an important part of the character they're playing - not always a military boost. Familiars serve those who know how to use them, and i've seen but a few situations of introducing a summon [including elementals] - in each case it was very well played [and not a 'cheap spin'] - and i must say that i was inspired to use them myself. I beg your pardon for speaking openly, but i'm not surprised you're not using them yourself.
First of all it hasn't been implied anywhere by the devs or creators that they're not goin' to do anythin'. We're not decision makers Eqvinox - I'm not - and neither you are. I'm only puttin' in my suggestions.
No, not everyone who uses a familiar is a ridiculous roleplayer in my eyes and I could give you a nice example of familiar usage IG like the latest toothless-magician (played by small-print) and his raven. The problem is the only familiar with ME ambience in NWN engine (sorcerer familiar) is raven. Eqvinox learn to read with understanding and read my posts again. As for Dunedain kickin' around with Mirkwood spiders I think you've seen them yourself.
Besides I think we should all go back to the first page and reread every post so far. There are different opinions on this issue and in no way we're of one mind here.
vulpex: 'Do not also assume we lack imagination, young man' I do not assume you lack imagination quite the contrary. But 'young man' is out of place. Don't patronize, don't give me that "you're new here - mind your place" rap 'cause I simply won't have it. I respect everyone here and my posts are not aimed against anybody but the nwn engine in some aspects. Pronto.
Vox populi says 'no' to Familiars removal. DM Kev says 'maybe' to introducing new ME familiars. You're not listening.
The thread lives again, fueled by the fire of your chaotic attempts to thrust your idea into life. Forgive me if i do not understand you entirely.
Re-read Noletaró post about actual place of the mentioned Familiar creatures, and believe the Loremaster when he speaks. Raven is not the only fitting familiar, it's easy to play, which doesn't mean it has to be ordinary. Everyone could have a raven, even in real life. In fact, people have snakes, spiders, lizards, vultures, tigers, alligators, boars, sea turtles, wolves, ants...
And no, i had not the pleasure to meet Dunadan spider masters.
InVinoVeritas
16-08-2007, 11:53
Vox populi says 'no' to Familiars removal. DM Kev says 'maybe' to introducing new ME familiars. You're not listening.
The thread lives again, fueled by the fire of your chaotic attempts to thrust your idea into life. Forgive me if i do not understand you entirely.
Re-read Noletaró post about actual place of the mentioned Familiar creatures, and believe the Loremaster when he speaks. Raven is not the only fitting familiar, it's easy to play, which doesn't mean it has to be ordinary. Everyone could have a raven, even in real life. In fact, people have snakes, spiders, lizards, vultures, tigers, alligators, boars, sea turtles, wolves, ants...
And no, i had not the pleasure to meet Dunadan spider masters.
First of all speak for yourself Eqvinox not for others and reread my posts again. I'm suggesting - disabling the feat for sorcerers or replacing familiars with more reasonable creatures. I suggested disabling only recently as it's easier. Noletaro haven't provided valid instances from JRR's books so far. I'm sure you've read his response and I'm awaitin' these: paragraphs / page nrs / chapters.
You met the good-aligned character /spider master/ on many occasions. It's your character - Turuna. I wasn't sure if she's a dunedain or not, but I'm certain she's of good if not - lawful good character. :)
Bah, summon a spider once in a party and live with it forever.
I withdraw for now from this discussion. It's clear to me that the majority does not want the feat disabled, but is open to something new in this matter. I'm not speaking for everyone, everyone speaks for themselves - i'm only pointing out the obvious to you.
Never use the word impossible in a fantasy world :) The fact that Tolkien has not written our pc's bio and history, have not mentioned certain places, or creatures which live in the deepest depths of mines and caves, does not mean they cannot exist.
InVinoVeritas
16-08-2007, 12:29
Bah, summon a spider once in a party and live with it forever.
I withdraw for now from this discussion. It's clear to me that the majority does not want the feat disabled, but is open to something new in this matter. I'm not speaking for everyone, everyone speaks for themselves - i'm only pointing out the obvious to you.
Never use the word impossible in a fantasy world :) The fact that Tolkien has not written our pc's bio and history, have not mentioned certain places, or creatures which live in the deepest depths of mines and caves, does not mean they cannot exist.
1.Not once.
2.I think of this server as of The Best MERP representation / game out there. Not ony the best NWN merp server but the best MERP game - not as - D&D classic-penny-arcade.
Sonic Youth
16-08-2007, 17:02
Never use the word impossible in a fantasy world :) The fact that Tolkien has not written our pc's bio and history, have not mentioned certain places, or creatures which live in the deepest depths of mines and caves, does not mean they cannot exist.
I hear what your saying Eqvi but I disagree with this part.
What is there to stop people throwing any fantasy stereotype into ME then purely because its acceptable in their opinion to fantasy standard?
For example - What is there to stop people putting lazers in middle earth?
- By one persons interpretation it might be rediculous but to another they might have seen lazers in some of the Ultima series so to them its a valid part of the fantasy genre and therefore, why couldnt it be accepted in Tolkein's world?
Bending the rules of Middle Earth under the premise of "just because tolkein didnt write about it doesnt mean its not there!" is preposterous IMHO.
I mean you no offense in saying this Eqvi just I think this discussion as a whole is becoming a bit overly heated and people are starting to say things they havent thought out properly purely for the effect of strengthening their argument towards their views of what is accepted in Middle Earth.
Also stating that the majority of players dont want the feature disabled has no grounds whatsoever until a vote is cast. Its putting words in other peoples mouths and going completely on your own personal assumption (Plus I dont its true at all).
Personally, as i'v stated previously, I would like to see the feat disabled and like some other people I'd like a feat in replacement to restore balance for the classes involved. All gauged towards how useful/Crucial familiars/summons are for that particular class.
Here are some that have been suggested:
Rangers - Choice of Uncanny dodge or heavy armour (Lvl 6)
Caters either for dex or Str Based Rangers
Sorcerers - Barbarian 10% movement increase
Sorcerer being used to moving around in Light clothing and due to their magical nature can move around faster than normal beings.
Would help Sorcerers Survive slightly better, especially at early levels.
Druids - Undecided.
Druids of all the classes fit Familiars and Summons. taking away a Druids summons and Familiar really cripples this class more than the others. The Druid is the only Class I feel has Familiars fitting with Middle Earth. A druid without summons/familiar is like a weaker Cleric.
This is the sort of thing I personally (and some others) would like to see. Its not as Hard as you would believe to use these as these feats are existing and can be LETO'd in and the offending feat leto'd out. Using LETO is a manual process but perhaps the change could be done automatically somehow... I'v certainly seen servers where such things are automated and all that needs to happen is the char logging out and logging back in.
Simply disabling the feat/spells would however take less effort than swapping it and would ensure familiars/summons are not used. - A controversial approach but it might make Animal Empathy a Viable Skill again. (Which is a far better representation)
Changing the Nature of the Familiars selectable -as suggested by invino- Is another choice. Not sure How hard it would be to implement tho. Also this keeps familiars in which myself and some others dont like.
Leaving the feat as it is the Final alternative. Players will either avoid the use of it due to its incompatibility with Tolkein's ME or use it anyway. This is also controversial as I know a lot of players think familiars disrupt the theme of the module.
Whether a replacement feat is acceptable or not, IMHO all familiars should be disabled and instead should only EVER be rewards for exceptional roleplay(done similarly to horse tokens) to players who prove they can encorporate a familiar into ME tastefully.
...But no goody Rangers with Mirkwood spiders please!
Yuck. :D
Thats my Bit.
Blindly removing feats and abilities is going to leave some (or perhaps even a lot) players annoyed. Not just because someone's favourite feature is gone, but because it is going to upset the balance of the classes - which, let's admit it, is not exactly good in NWN to begin with, and which the desire to stay true to the ME setting has already made even more problematic in UTT. This just isn't good.
Changing the familiars and summons to fit the setting better is certainly possible, but it is a tedious and time-consuming task. Given that the builder team is already at work on a large project, I cannot imagine them having time for that now, or anytime soon for that matter. It's the kind of thing that would most likely need a dedicated scripter all by itself.
Removing the summons, but providing some other useful abilities in compensation, so as to maintain the balance and keep everyone happy, is another solution, but the issues are mostly the same as for the previous one. It could be easier, but not by much.
So there you go. It seems that for the time being, the only reasonable way to go is to keep things as they are, and wait for a better time.
int19h sums things up nicely, from the development point of view.
Sonic Youth
16-08-2007, 17:33
Blindly removing feats and abilities is going to leave some (or perhaps even a lot) players annoyed. Not just because someone's favourite feature is gone, but because it is going to upset the balance of the classes - which, let's admit it, is not exactly good in NWN to begin with, and which the desire to stay true to the ME setting has already made even more problematic in UTT. This just isn't good.
Changing the familiars and summons to fit the setting better is certainly possible, but it is a tedious and time-consuming task. Given that the builder team is already at work on a large project, I cannot imagine them having time for that now, or anytime soon for that matter. It's the kind of thing that would most likely need a dedicated scripter all by itself.
Removing the summons, but providing some other useful abilities in compensation, so as to maintain the balance and keep everyone happy, is another solution, but the issues are mostly the same as for the previous one. It could be easier, but not by much.
So there you go. It seems that for the time being, the only reasonable way to go is to keep things as they are, and wait for a better time.
Well said Int19.
I appreciate the no-nonsense logic of your reply.
I too see the way things are currently as the only probable solution for now but I do also think that this should be addressed in some way, sometime in the future.
But like I said above, I feel Familiars should be earned if they are to exist at all.
DM__Sauron
16-08-2007, 18:27
One wonders why so much energy has been spent on an issue that matters to so few. I would be surprised if there were more than 3 active mages on the server right now anyway.
Sonic Youth
16-08-2007, 18:44
Well...
Perhaps we have to wonder why there are possibly only 3 active mages on server?
If there was a class that had the ability to shoot lazers from their eyes but only one person on server played it... would it be a waste of energy to talk about why that single ability wasnt quite right? :P
DM__Sauron
16-08-2007, 23:47
The reason why is because we are a low magic world and mages have been changed quite a bit, few people used to them elsewhare like the reduction in power or they simply feel it does not fit the genre. If one person could shoot lasers out of his eyes ? He would be very low on the list of things to change or improve. But I suppose I am giving a proper answer to a sarcastic comment. It probably did not deserve a response.
Sonic Youth
17-08-2007, 01:00
Whoa now...
If you read the entire thread I think most people who have posted have been creative and productive in their responses and some varying views have come to light.
Through use of threads like this you gain a perspective over the kind of players who are occupying the server and an insight into any possible changes they might like.
Also it should be said that nobody in this thread is making demands of any kind of the server or anyone -its all purely hypothetical.
As to how you take or whether or not you think my posts deserve a response is your perogative but my post above was not intended to be sarcastic but instead lighthearted.
What I was trying to convey is that the issues of this thread are in the interests of the players otherwise this discussion would not have gotten as far as it has.
Just as a character with lazers coming from their sight would also be in the interest of the players as to most it would be an ability with no place on this server.
Nolėtįro
17-08-2007, 04:22
All my posts have been purely clarifying. I have not chosen any side of this debate purely due to the fact that I would be dearly biased towards removing all familiars and summons. My role is of a different nature; I make sure people go forth with their ideas and learn something that can aid them understand better how the universe of Eä works, and apply such knowledge in improving their skills in RPing in a TOlkien setting, since Tolkien settings are amongst the hardest to RP correctly.
Now, I did not have exact quotings of the facts I presented simply because I am used to discussing such things with people that actually know about them in advance. I am used to debating with people who know what they and I are talking about.
You asked for clarification on the matter, I gave it on a purely factual and informative basis, completely un-biased, and yet you scorned what I said, thinking it to be some lie. This may not have been directly said, but it was what I read from your posts. You attempt to discuss matters purely based on a very loose hold of how Arda truly works, yet dare to judge my lack of quotings. Bad move.
Now, to properly aid you in understanding what I wrote in my previous long post, I shall bring forth ZEH QUOTES! :maul:
CONCERNING SPIRITS
OF AULĖ AND YAVANNA, THE SILMARILLION
[...]Then Manwė awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwė said: 'O Kementįri, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost them not now remember, Kementįri, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilśvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'[...]
Very clear, no? Spirits do exist in Arda, and fulfill their roles in it as it was intended by Eru. Independent or serving the Valar, like the Ents and the Eagles.
Eriador, Arnor and the Heirs of Isildur, Appendix A, LOTR
[...]In the days of Argeleb II the plague came into Eriador from the Southeast, and most of the people of Cardolan perished, especially in Minhiriath. The Hobbits and all other peoples suffered greatly, but the plague lessened as it passed northwards, and the northern parts of Arthedain were little affected. It was at this time that an end came of the Dśnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.[...]
Need you further evidence of my claims and my thoughts?
Of Turin Turambar, The Silmarillion
[...]And now he stood alone, for the few that followed him had fled. But in that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping doors, and lay behind, between Tśrin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: 'Hail, son of Hśrin. Well met!'[...]
I believe this is enough information on the matter.
Now, as for the matter concerning which heroes possessed "familiars", that is redundant. ALL heroes in the writings of Tolkien are incredibly powerful and skilfull, except for the hobbits. There is nothing "ordinary" about heroes, they are supposed to be exceptional. Heck, even regular people are exceptional. No one would play in a server of NWN where everyone is a bloody Commoner.
Some players here have earned incredibly high status in the hyerarchies of the societies they are inserted. And yet, you say "ordinary heroes"?
Right now, I have a huge pile of books right next to me, all penned or partially penned by Tolkien. I have read all of them over six times, some over twelve. In all of them, I can find few personalities that used animal companions or any of the like. YET IT IS NOT MY INTENT TO PROVE SUCH. My intent is to provide logical explanation as to the presence of Familiars and Animal Companions without hindering the immersion.
Players have two choices; Either they use familiars, animal companions and summons, or they don't. As was already said, the situation will probably remain this way for quite some time. Yet, I would rather prefer that, if players DO use them, that they are duly prepared to deal with the RPing consequences! And this is why I posted my first post in this thread, and this one. To provide enough information to serve as a base from which one can develop a familiar, summon or animal companion's story. Deal with this information in any way I see fit. My work, I feel, is done.
Sonic, oh but i don't mean that Luke Skywalker could possibly be visiting Arda once or twice, or that Laiquendi were all killed by Predator in the third age.
I just mean that on some traces we can create things that weren't properly described in the books. Example of that is very near, Noletaro quoted perfect excerpts about spirits and proved to us all that they in fact had their place in ME. What wasn't there was their description of form, shape, appearance, so this part we need to make up.
It's happening daily on the server, we are actually a lenghtening of Tolkien's pen; we, the players, are the authors of Untold Tales.
InVinoVeritas
17-08-2007, 09:04
You asked for clarification on the matter, I gave it on a purely factual and informative basis, completely un-biased, and yet you scorned what I said, thinking it to be some lie. This may not have been directly said, but it was what I read from your posts. You attempt to discuss matters purely based on a very loose hold of how Arda truly works, yet dare to judge my lack of quotings. Bad move.
Now, to properly aid you in understanding what I wrote in my previous long post, I shall bring forth ZEH QUOTES! :maul:
CONCERNING SPIRITS
OF AULË AND YAVANNA, THE SILMARILLION
[...]Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: 'O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost them not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'[...]
Very clear, no? Spirits do exist in Arda, and fulfill their roles in it as it was intended by Eru. Independent or serving the Valar, like the Ents and the Eagles.
Eriador, Arnor and the Heirs of Isildur, Appendix A, LOTR
[...]In the days of Argeleb II the plague came into Eriador from the Southeast, and most of the people of Cardolan perished, especially in Minhiriath. The Hobbits and all other peoples suffered greatly, but the plague lessened as it passed northwards, and the northern parts of Arthedain were little affected. It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.[...]
Need you further evidence of my claims and my thoughts?
Of Turin Turambar, The Silmarillion
[...]And now he stood alone, for the few that followed him had fled. But in that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping doors, and lay behind, between Túrin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: 'Hail, son of Húrin. Well met!'[...]
I believe this is enough information on the matter.
Now, as for the matter concerning which heroes possessed "familiars", that is redundant. ALL heroes in the writings of Tolkien are incredibly powerful and skilfull, except for the hobbits. There is nothing "ordinary" about heroes, they are supposed to be exceptional. Heck, even regular people are exceptional. No one would play in a server of NWN where everyone is a bloody Commoner.
Some players here have earned incredibly high status in the hyerarchies of the societies they are inserted. And yet, you say "ordinary heroes"?
Noletaro, spirits do exist in ME. ME is after all a magical world but a magical world with its own type of magic - and D&D is not the type of magic seen in ME. Ents and eagles sure.
I said I'm in favor of creatures like these - ravens etc etc. I'm in favor of animal empathy or ranger / druid animal companions.
Still instances of familiars you have given me are invalid because they pertain to Vala or Maia and to rare historical figures. I used a bad word - there are no ordinary heroes / heroines, but obviously you couldn't compare us to figures like Aragorn or Boromir or Faramir or Turin for that matter ?
We're heroes less ordinary and always will be because this world and its events along with its historical figures and happenings have been already decided.
No I never thought you were a liar. I think you are a knowledgable man and I myself find rather interest in technical side of things - building / scripting and such like. It's good to have people like you here. But even someone like me - not with very deep intricate knowledge on Tolkienology to notice that current sorcerer familiars are out of place due to the NWN engine.
InVinoVeritas
17-08-2007, 09:28
int19h sums things up nicely, from the development point of view.
correction to my previous post
instead of "we're heroes less ordinary" there should be "hereos more common" LOL
I just remade familiars myself. The familiars for the sorcerer are:
1 Wolf (AC)
2 Hawk (AC)
3 Kitten*
4 Direrat
5 Raven
6 Cat*
7 Seagull*
8 Dog (terrier)*
9 Snake (can be evil)
10 Spider (AC - evil)
The ones marked by * were added by me. I modified the familiars hen_familiar.tlk table. I didn't change the cep or merp.tlk tho and relied completely on descriptions already in the mod - which will make it very easy for devs, players wouldn't feel the change at all. These familiars operate on the same basis as original D&D familiars. They don't develop fighting capabilities tho. Dogs have high search / skill affifinity search, cats (cat + black kitten) have high stealth and a bit of tumble too. They have up to 10hp and are rp familiars. They can be used for rp/ spot/search/ sneaking errands etc etc! I errased eyeballs and pseudo dragon and the rest of this nonsense tho. Tell me what you think and If you'd like to see it test it with me message me or find me on irc.
It's so much fun possessing and runnin' around as this tiny kitten (which can be found in Minas Tirith Magic Shoppe) and meowing through voice-chat commands!
Eqvi and Sonic saw them yesteday so they might give you their first impression. And sorry for the heated debate yesterday Eqvi. These familiars would be for you too if you'll ever have a sorcerer.
Sonic Youth
17-08-2007, 14:03
I thought the familiars were excellent. Some could use tweaking perhaps, maybe some could be changed for other animals. You made some suggestions just before we closed the module that were very good.
I'd rather see this implemented than see the current ones, but i'd still rather see it disabled.
Keep it up Invino. Maybe the Devs will like them too.
Sounds very nice!
Is there a test server up for that thing, or a demo hak to try it out?
InVinoVeritas
17-08-2007, 18:38
I'll set it up for you later meanwhile I'm adding more creatures. Maybe a stag? For elves? Or a white cat too hehe. curently there's only black cat/ black kitten. An owl would make a nice addition too. So I'll throw in owls too. Will let you know later int19h.
InVinoVeritas
17-08-2007, 19:28
I just applied a few improvements.
You start with a kitten (lvl1) then at lvl 10 it changes into a cat - then at lvl 20 it grows into a panther with some fighting capability + fast speed movement.
Same with eagle - you start with a small model - then at lvl 15 it become the legendary eagle model.
*edit* and done the dog too. You start with a puppy - then at lvl 10 it become a medium size dog then at lvl 20 it changes into dire wolf shape
Kyle Morgan
17-08-2007, 21:09
*waves*
A very interesting discussion.
Personally i like the idea of changing familiars to pure rp summons. I have heard before, that: in vino veritas ;)
Concerning the current system:
i always felt that the first important step one have to make in using familiars/summons in MERP is to distance oneself from the AD&D origin. So if you encounter a huge black hound with red glowing eyes in MERP there should never even be the slightest thought of: Oh - a hellhound, who summoned it?
It is of course in the responsibility of the player, who summoned it, to give explanations for the what and why about this creature.
Without treating familiars as 'familiars' you can spin a nice tale for fond memories - or at least try to; not everything works as good as one hoped to, isn't it?
I see some of the familiars as a tool which can give sorcerers the DM-like ability to plant unknown creatures at custom points.
InVinoVeritas
17-08-2007, 21:31
Hey here's what I've done. Kyle Morgan good advice. I erased all D&D (fighter familiars) from the selection menu. They would stay in-game obviously but my rp familiars would match them in power. 4 familiars:
Cat
Dog
Viper
Eagle
Each of them has 3 stages. Tiny build, medium build (usually lvl 10), big build (lvl 20). Each familiar gains in power usually at lvl 5 10 20. They never become as good fightin' machines as D&D familiars. Viper Huge at lvl 20+ for instance has 60hp and 18Ac but Sneak Attack 3d6 and Use Poison - after all it's Anaconda type we're talkin' about here...but at lvl 1 viper a dog could take it.
Eagles - fast movement speed at lvl 10 and so on and on. Contact me now on IRC int19h and everyone who would like to see them. Up to level 10 they normally have 10 or around 10 hp but some special abilities like sneakin' (cats) or searching(dogs) + skill affinity alertness. Hard to describe it all. Familiars are so much fun now.
Thanks Kyle and Int and the rest of you for support on this issue. Find me on msn.
PS Int19h send you a few messages over MSN
InVinoVeritas
17-08-2007, 22:41
Correction of the above post: my familiars wouldn't match D&D familiars in fighting capabilities even at lvl 20.
Nolėtįro
18-08-2007, 01:44
I see some of the familiars as a tool which can give sorcerers the DM-like ability to plant unknown creatures at custom points.I find such to be a very realistic ability for sorcerers/wizards. If the NPCs can do it, why can't the PCs? ;)
These familiars sound quite nice indeed, from an RPing perspective, and I would be all for them, were it not the warning of my heart towards the in-game balance.
I'm predicting that the usage of familiars/animal companions will be downright rare, if the standard D&D ones go away. A very useful and practical feat, shattered at it's core, which is to lend assistance in battle as well as with skills the wizard may not have and may mimic through the familiar at a lower level of skill.
I find it terribly difficult to play a caster already with a standard familiar, I am dying to see what will happen after they are removed. Sorcerers falling left right and center! An escort of at least two players needed! At the very least, they have some IC respect. Wether Good or Evil, wielders of sorcery are respected for their skill, and are rightfully feared. That's what gives me strength to spend time with my own.
The balance of power thus suffers a shift towards fighters, since they can easily solo mostly anything. One hit can slaughter a Sorcerer easily already. One failed Concentration check is death for a Sorcerer, since he will be easily overwhelmed. It may be a great class for RPing purposes...
..but drawing fun out of the class will become increasingly harder if it is done. This is what I see, game-wise. I may be very wrong, but I still have the conviction that this would ruin balance. Correct me, if that is the case.
The only thing I would take from the familiars beside the ones I have mentioned as completely impossible in Eä is the Feed your Familiar dialogue option. Free healing = NO NO!! =_=
In my opinion, familiars are only a tiny part of a sorceror. A familiar in itself is something that was introduced by the D&D system, I cannot think of any other system that actually uses them. And after playing D&D with friends for many years I think I can count the number of times I have used my familiar on one hand. This may be something to do with the way I play, or it may not.
In NWN, I believe that I have only used familiars twice, and both those times I was on my own and trying to scout out another area without being seen. Even at the low levels, I did not use them. They should be only a roleplaying aid, not an uber fighting machine.
The idea of these new familiars is a nice one, and I would think that if they could be changed and it does not cause too much trouble, it would be nice to see them implimented. The current set of familiars is quite wrong for this setting.
The only other idea to throw into the pot, is the duration of summon spells. In D&D 3.5 they changed the duration to 1 round / level. This is of course very short, but on the other hand it is currently 24 hours! I would therefore think that something like 10 minutes would be more balanced. It is not a game breaker, or is it an urgent issue. Just something to think about.
InVinoVeritas
18-08-2007, 09:26
In my opinion, familiars are only a tiny part of a sorceror. A familiar in itself is something that was introduced by the D&D system, I cannot think of any other system that actually uses them. And after playing D&D with friends for many years I think I can count the number of times I have used my familiar on one hand. This may be something to do with the way I play, or it may not.
In NWN, I believe that I have only used familiars twice, and both those times I was on my own and trying to scout out another area without being seen. Even at the low levels, I did not use them. They should be only a roleplaying aid, not an uber fighting machine.
The idea of these new familiars is a nice one, and I would think that if they could be changed and it does not cause too much trouble, it would be nice to see them implimented. The current set of familiars is quite wrong for this setting.
The only other idea to throw into the pot, is the duration of summon spells. In D&D 3.5 they changed the duration to 1 round / level. This is of course very short, but on the other hand it is currently 24 hours! I would therefore think that something like 10 minutes would be more balanced. It is not a game breaker, or is it an urgent issue. Just something to think about.
We seem to be having the same opinion here Guyror. Changing them for my familiars wouldn't upset the balance at all. I could hardly solo anything with or without a familiar anyways (D&D one). I haven't soloed anything anyway and always have run my adventures in a group. That's how it should be where you are a sorcerer or your character is of a different class. Never soloed anything 'cause rpingly it's hard to explain unless adventures are very easy and dialogue/ non-combat based.
I will modifiy the dialogue for you as I hate this full heal convo myself Noletaro.
InVinoVeritas
18-08-2007, 10:33
The familiars can be now found on my website.
http://nwnpublishing.atspace.com
Follow the instructions and enjoy kickin' around with you new pets! :)
InVino certainly made a very nice hak there - all as advertised; I advise everyone to download and take a look. Given that it's already done, and easy to add to the module, I think it is entirely feasible to add this. From RP standpoint, it's certainly much more fitting to the setting.
I'm predicting that the usage of familiars/animal companions will be downright rare, if the standard D&D ones go away. A very useful and practical feat, shattered at it's core, which is to lend assistance in battle as well as with skills the wizard may not have and may mimic through the familiar at a lower level of skill.
I find it terribly difficult to play a caster already with a standard familiar, I am dying to see what will happen after they are removed. Sorcerers falling left right and center! An escort of at least two players needed! At the very least, they have some IC respect. Wether Good or Evil, wielders of sorcery are respected for their skill, and are rightfully feared. That's what gives me strength to spend time with my own.
To be honest, the familiars aren't of that much help to a soloing sorc even now - summons are generally tougher. In a party, their fighting role is even less pronounced - you are guaranteed to have better tanks. From those very few successful sorcerers I've seen, the ones that got to higher levels all tended to focus on spells, not on summons. Also note that while all those new summons are physically weak, they still have useful skills - e.g. cat has pretty decent Hide/Move Silent/Spot.
I'v checked them out. I like the Progression they go through as you gain levels ("growing"). Without a doubt they are more fitting to the environment for common heros/villians such as our PC's. They are more like pets and as said before have their uses too.
Seems most people are of the like mind about this, as in...would prefer this to the standard nwn familiars. Kevs post early on was promising. Anymore to elaborate on this now that InVinoVeritas has finished it? From Kev and other DMs that is :)
InVinoVeritas
18-08-2007, 15:14
Thanks for very nice comments. I just updated and added rats to our animal farm. Change the name of 'husky' to 'dog' as well as the description. I had to search the nwn dialogue.tlk to find the right description I didn't notice before.
Rats grows on the same basis as the rest of the animal but I good sneakers (scouts) fightin' capabilities none at all heh.
The only fighting creatures would be cat ==> panther upon reaching lvl
eagle 20+
or dog 20+
or eagle 20+
But these creatures as I said are more useful in terms of skills they provide. Eagles make great messengers upon reaching a certain level they get -fast movement- speed etc etc.
This is very easy to implement and fully compatible with this mod Int as I explained on the website and in my previous posts That's mainly because I relied on the original / nwn .tlk instead of making my own. Make a 1st lvl wiz or sorc - the elf in the middle of the map gives you 5k xp to lvl you. Enjoy.
the-small-print
18-08-2007, 16:33
This sounds very interesting, and I'll be sure to have a look at it when I have time, but one thing that stands out immediately is 'kitten-cat-panther'
No no no!
If you're going to have a kitten growing into a cat, nice touch, but cats don't turn into panthers. If you want this, maybe just use the cat model as a separate creature - 'cub' - and then have that grow into a panther, but please don't go from kitten up to panther, it's just silly.
InVinoVeritas
18-08-2007, 16:53
Sure Small-print if the rest of the players will voice the same opinion about cats I will change it. This growing stage would have to be applied to every animal I made then and that would imply that tiny cubs can't grow into bigger creatures. Go to Minas Tirith Magic Shoppe and take a look at cats there too.
I don't think it's silly at all. Kittens - don't grow into panthers it's only the panther model I used. That's all. Besides reaching lvl 20+ for sorcerer / wizard is a hell of a challenge. I presume you've got a high level wizard yourself and you would like to have a smaller pet but I can't change the models to make an exception for a single case.
Besides I've spent too much on modelling so far so I'm not changing anything at the moment. Same you could say of orcs = orcs don't change into ologs.
But this transformations symbolises feeding / breeding of an animal.
And no, I can't use a separate mode. If I used a separate model for every creature than I'd take more space then merpuk itself. That's why I made only 4 / 5 creatures so the addition wouldn't have a substantial size. I'm not doing anything more on this issue and I think I have already voiced my opinions previously and my ideas along with my designs so I don't think I have anything else to say here.
Thanks everyone for participating in this discussion. That's all folks! - it is 4 me :P
The models for fully grown-up cats certainly could use some scaling-down, so that the cat familiar for a lvl20 wizard does not look exactly like the panther. But that I'm sure is a minor thing.
InVinoVeritas
18-08-2007, 17:26
Ok Int19h I'll heed your advice and see what I can do.
Aren't there other cat models in the game ? Like the Wild Cat one.
InVinoVeritas
18-08-2007, 22:16
If you could use ready-made NWN crits for familiars I would've used them already.
the-small-print
19-08-2007, 00:33
Oh, I wasn't suggesting you create more models or anything, just think that (having seen lion, panther, tiger cubs myself), they really don't start out that small, and are generally at least the size of a smallish fully grown cat.
And you're quite right, tiny cubs do grow into bigger creatures, but kittens don't become big cats, because they are a different species.
So you could have a kitten that grows into a cat and a cub (making use of the pre-existing cat model, since it's roughly thre right size and shape) that grows into a panther. If it had to incluse three stages, just use the same model for two of the stages and change the stats.
I have, surprisingly enough, seen the cat in Minas tirith, having been on the server for some considerable time.
And no, I have one wizard who is level five, and despite being almost entirely incapable in combat, he has a raven, who can not deal more than 1 damage in a hit, so is used almost exclusivelyy for RP, but then so's the wizard himself.
I've checked them out Invino, and I like them a lot. From the Middle Earth perspective they are by far much more fitting.
That leaves the question of playability of Wizard/Sorceror class should these familiars be used. My own feeling is that Sorcerors/Wizards already need to be in a party ie difficult for them to solo; and these changes would probably be of minor impact on playability.
InVinoVeritas
02-09-2007, 07:32
So what do the Devs think? The files are at your disposal but I could modify familiars on your request too. DM Kev? DM Avalyn? I guess I should ask you - you're the decision makers here...
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