Concerning Goblins *snarls*

[InVinoVeritas]

Concerning Goblins
I think more players should opt for creating goblin characters - ordinary snagas instead of BNs. Obviously everyone wants to be important and wants to perform some sort of function but unfortunately according to the portrayal of the evil faction by Prof.Tolkien - BNs were not many. Meanwhile there’s only a few goblins - mind you goblins - not orcs (aiming to go olog in the future). I think goblin is not an easy character ‘cause it’s not as physically capable in fight as an orc nor has it any social status apart from being a common slave and yo-yo (push-around). My goblin - named Kashaniash (name invented by my gf btw) would like to see more of his mates in game! Thanks to Sonic Youth for making his goblin character - my clansman. If we meet the right BN - in game - who can really roleplay evil then we’ll be really servile, meanwhile Kashaniash has pledged his life to Nasheeta for saving it twice. A goblin guild would be nice. Bottomline - more gobs - less Black Numenoreans! And enjoy being a slave - non-important cannon fodder - nobody gives a shoot-about too! Don’t get too personal and don’t take offence. It’s all in the rp.

[SNarfel]

Cant but agree with you’re reasoning and despite having a fair few characters already whom I love to play I shall create a goblin along the lines you suggest, mainly because as yet I have never had a satisfying evil character and your ideas appeal to me.

Goblin guild; again, I like the idea very much but for the number of folk we have on the server I reckon we already have a fair few guilds. Still, I would like to hear what such a guild would have to offer, how would it function, would it have goals etc. A good opportunity to discuss and bounce ideas off each other I would say.

[The Frenchman]

Mmm one of my housemates has stated he would only come and play on the server if he could play evil... and we made a bunch of gobboes... Perhaps this might fit in with your plans. Will make a goblin as soon as I can...
*wanders off cackling*

[DM_Olórin]

played a couple of goblins in my time here, and i can recommend them as a welcome change of pace for an evil character. BNs scheme, orcs despoil, but goblins run around trying not to get the living daylights walloped out of them by their cruel masters :)

goblins make for excellent light comic relief characters as well as evil underhand backstabbers. Strangely enough the 2 concepts are not at odds when you play a goblin.

I'm sure this has been posted elsewhere but in case anyone isnt aware, its better to use the gnome racial type rather than the halfling when making a goblin character as actual goblin heads are available for the gnome.

Try to remember to indicate in your subrace entry that the character is supposed to be a goblin or a snaga as you choose. A lot of people forget to do that ;)

[SNarfel]

Very welcome, especialy re Gnome phenotype and sub race entry :). I had certainly forgot.

[InVinoVeritas]

Yes gnome subrace - rox - and custom CEP override voicesets - the following is the recommended voicesets:

Imp, Ebrax
Human, Male, Drunk
Spirit, Male, Zelieph
Goblin King
Xanos
Asabi Thrall (highly recommended)

I've gone through all the voicechat commands to make sure there are no references to Origina NWN campains.

[the-small-print]

The thing about goblins is that they're so very hard to play unless you have others about to play with. Exactly *because* they are cannon-fodder, if you are in a party with one and it dies, usual RP comes to odds with server etiquette and common sense; if it is wounded too badly to stand, why bother wasting time and bindings to get it back up again?

I can see the appeal of playing in a big party of weaklings that would plot and bicker with one another, but then you hit the old problem of organising enough people at once to be in a party, and also the fact that everyone's idea of what a goblin *is* varies, with many people seeing them as the stupid comic relief they are in NWN - Grovel and Deekin-esque characters - constantly referring to themselves in the 3rd person, and saying things so stupid and out of place that if we were doing strict RP, their superior would most likely just kill them to stop them giving away any more, or speaking out of turn.

Something I have missed in most goblins I have seen is that Tolkien never actually said they were stupid, as far as I recall. Quite the opposite. He said:

".... Goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled of dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers,pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their own design... It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions delighted them... goblins don't care who they catch, as long as it is done smart and secret, and the prisoners can't defend themselves." - The Hobbit

This, I think, is very much at odds with the "[insert name of goblin here] does good, boss. Yip!" approach, and suggests a high INT, low WIS build. Admittedly, though, this would give more scope for independence, provided the goblins in question weren't ruled over by anyone but a goblin. If they were, fo course, like with orcs, it's hard to find a RP-niche for a slave wanderiing about middle earth at will, or without his tribe.

The appeal of Black Númenoréans, on the other hand, is that they can be independent, influential and commanding, thereby naturally finding themselves in the thick of plotlines and being able to contribute in councils, where a snaga (which literally means slave), or a simple goblin would not.

This independence and the trust that would be put in them thanks to their own self-assuredness and resourcefulness, added to the ability to handle themselves in small numbers in battle, makes it much more likely that it would be they who would be wandering about Middle Earth alone or in small groups, plotting and meddling, and undermining. This, I believe, is a large part fo the reason why in the scheme of things on the Server, Umbar is much more important and influential than Mordor; anyone playing a servant of Mordor would have next to no free will at all.

Also, if you look at the numbers of black Númenoréans who are actually on the server, I am sure you'll find there are fewer than twenty who ever actually get played by the active players.

[InVinoVeritas]

I agree with you Small Print, goblins are not easy to play - for the most part 'cause interacting with other - evil players (especially of higher races) can be humiliating if you take things seriously. That's why most people on the evil side aim for BNs or powerful orc fighters. Goblins cannot certainly be played by everyone - certainly not by those (if there are any) - who assume airs of superiority. On the issue of Gob intelligence check this thread - DM Sauron has something to say:

http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php?t=316534

Creating a goblin warparty (a guild) would give us opportunity to meet with other goblins and run DM assisted quests and DMEs. DM Sauron has offered his help already! *grins*

Bottomline is as follows:
I'd gladly see in the future a DME or a DM assisted quest in which the party comprises let's say 4+ goblins commanded by 1 BN - instead of 5 BNs commanding 1 orc like I've seen before if you get my point heh.

[the-small-print]

On the issue of Gob intelligence check this thread - DM Sauron has something to say:

.....Bottomline is as follows:
I'd gladly see in the future a DME or a DM assisted quest in which the party comprises let's say 4+ goblins commanded by 1 BN - instead of 5 BNs commanding 1 orc like I've seen before if you get my point heh.

Mmm... my point was not how people tend to build their goblins, but the character they give them... the slightly endearing, stupid kicked puppy arroach.

Couldn't agree more with your point about so many BN to orcs though, although I imagine I'd have great fun making Raba boss goblins around (Eqvinox will tell you, he loves his superiority, does Raba ;) ), I'll have to wait and see if the leader would actually get much fun out of it, considering he'd have no one worthy enough to talk to.

[int19h]

It should be noted that it's not just Mordor or Isengard even for orcs and goblins. Moria orcs are supposed to be independent in this time in the setting (and fighting each other on occasion, so no problem for someone claiming to be a Moria orc having to fight if he actually comes to Moria), and so are the ones in the White Mountains. The problem is that the evil quest chain does not really fit anything but a Mordor orc, and perhaps an odd Saruman's Uruk sent in as a part of "exchange programme" of sorts - but even that is stretching it. A freedom loving orc is possible in this setting, but he wouldn't last in Dol Guldur one day...

[SNarfel]

The extract of the The Hobbit quoted relating to goblins is not a full picture. There is strong evidence to suggest that Professor Tolkien made some attempt to diminish the portrayal of goblins as in The Hobbit and strongly suggested they were no more than a shorter breed of orc. I would still lean towards a fairly dim race in general but with scope for intelligence to develope and grow in those few individuals whose hatred of all else does not blind their other faculties.

The point on “cute” goblins is well taken though, as perhaps there is too much comic relief when playing goblins and not enough nastiness, though I reckon this is a reflection of the difficulty in playing a race which is cannon fodder; an interesting challenge.

[The Frenchman]

constantly referring to themselves in the 3rd person, and saying things so stupid and out of place

Klod thinks it is unfair and mean that you compare him to goblins, and wants to kick you in the shins ;)

By the way I have to rethink his RP a bit... he's low Wis and about 12 Int, and though I have designed him with linguistic difficulties (he thinks in pictures and words get stuck somewhere on their way out of the frontal cortex) I would like him a bit less silly than he was yesterday (not that I didn't enjoy it).
Any ideas on average Int low Wis RP, since it would apply to the Goblins as well?

[DM__Sauron]

This thread is pleasing to me. Long have I wished to see a culture of Orcs and Goblins. I will concede that on our server the current ratio of BN to other evils is imbalanced. This is in large part due to lack of other evil activity, Melkor's Chosen is a Black Numenorean guild which at present is the only active evil guild and one of the more prominent guilds on the server. They have their own stable of Orcs and Goblins but they clearly play a lesser role limited to foot soldiers who get no say in much of anything. That said they are well cared for and seldom abused except for the odd transformation to stone.
My primary goal is to see a healthy varied evil community but until recently the number of people playing evils made this impossible. Now however we are seeing a surge in players and good many new ideas are coming forward.
There is this goblin guild/clan and an orc or two that wish to be White Hand Uruk-Hai. Also there is the SilverSword guild which is an evil Tharbad guild which will not include BN's.
As I said to InVinoVeritas, if a band of 3 or 4 goblins can be gathered I am open to running some events for them. This should not be confused with being a guild. People have tried the goblin clan in past and it has died out after sometime. Perhaps in part to lack of DM support but also due to lack of leadership. An official guild while not impossible would have to demonstrate some staying power before any official recognition would be considered. Guilds are a privilege to be earned, they require very high standards in conduct and RP because they in essence become part of the servers image.
I would love to see this work as I see the potential. A whole clan with a shaman , a chief , warriors, scouts and scavengers could easily offer much to the community and could be largely self sufficient. Other evil guilds might wish to hire you for missions, battles and good many other things. There is even the means to provide an exceptional goblin with a Worg, a prize that would be of great prestige both as an rp accomplishment and among the Goblin community.
So I will encourage this. Gather and function as a group and you will be rewarded with events. Excel and become part of MERP's culture and your clan may be recognized. My advice is choose your leader wisely, and do not keep players with questionable standards and be mindful that THE EYE is watching.
Everything I have just said also applies to the Uruk-Hai White Hand idea. I love all evil equally and do what I can for those that are bringing something to MERP.

[InVinoVeritas]

The leader apart from being a good rper you shave - high (for a goblin) charisma and str which would make him fierce in a battle and influential as well. Apart from that there should be a councillor - shaman preferably (higher wis/ int).Kashaniash my character - is only a simple chopper, messenger boy so I'm out of the contest. BTW could you change my voiceset to Imp Ebrax? I chose Goblin King but it doesn't suit my character. I'm more of an ordinary slaver - even among goblins. Simple fightin' tool.

[InVinoVeritas]

Goblins with higher charisma - leader type gobs - str 15+, char 12+ - I recommend choosing Goblin King voiceset. The current limit for Charisma is 12 as set by revised character guildlines implied by DM Sauron. Yet I wonder if an exception could be made for our potential candidate for the goblin chieftain? DM Sauron?

[SNarfel]

Hah hah, Imp Ibrax voice set! already taken!!!

If your serious about the clan idea and things continue to move in that direction, may I suggest incorporation of a recent ad hoc event which DM Yavanna did for a party of goodies who ventured in to Goblin Gate, That event is a ready made spring board for a Goblin clan. As a Goblin Leader in the event was adamant that the invaders were trespassing in his home and the subsequent rp in Rivendell was steered towards acknowledging (with considerable misgivings by some) that perhaps the good guys were indeed trespassing and goblins were indeed just defending their "homes", at least in this instant.

In fact, thinking along int19h's thoughts, Goblin Gate or a similar network of caverns in the Mistys would make a good additional evil area but one free of Mordor.

[InVinoVeritas]

Great stuff SNarfel! Cavern in the misties! We'd be one of the goblin calls which were called upon by The Great Goblin mentioned in The Hobbit. Well if Imp Ebrax is taken I'll take Spirit - Male - Zelieph if the DMs could change my voiceset.

[InVinoVeritas]

Sittin' in the stinkin' cave again. Waitin' for odders. Odders come - dem send us to death. We don't carry out dem odders - them nasty big orcs make sure we end up in the pot. Upstairs black ones *shivers and goes almost yellow from his natural green*. Feelin' like a small maggot on a big hook! Warparty be not bad. Sometimes - chief goes stinkin' mad and starts whippin' our baks. But whippin' better den da sight of the one without da face or his friendsss...In da warparty only friendsss we got. Dey don't stab us in our baks so quickly, their sharp - sticks not as big as dem of orcses. Dem ain't strong enuff to stab us yet. Gelguz - not som maggoty goblins but gud killa, Kreechur and Razor gud too and Bishibosh the triksy goblin. *wonders kashaniash munching a spiderling he just caught*





I think we have beginnings of a warparty here...1 more request please, could you change my voiceset (kashaniash) to - Spirit, Male, Zelieph ? I've just learnt that Snarfel has taken away Imp Ebrax and I'd like the warparty to be diverse in it's looks and voices hehe. Goblin King doesn't really suit my character either - low charisma - and certainly not a goblin leader. And could you place my description too please?

(Kashaniash) Description:
This goblin looks like he has been in many a fight. Nasty ritual scars cover his forehead and arms. His arms and legs are wiry - yet strong, his claws blackened and sharp. He is armed to his teeth with many different weapons strapped to his armour, belt, legs - many of them rusty and all of them crude.


THANKS ! *GRINS IMPISHLY*

[The Frenchman]

Darn, tried to create a goblin using the gnome thingy, but couldn't find the goblin heads or the voice sets, what am I missing? Please advise.
Will have to try again tomorrow.

[Sonic Youth]

Darn, tried to create a goblin using the gnome thingy, but couldn't find the goblin heads or the voice sets, what am I missing? Please advise.
Will have to try again tomorrow.

You need all the additional downloads including the head haks and soundset hak.

Everyones getting goblin feva!

[The Frenchman]

Thanks Sonic Youth but err mmm where do those live?
*looks embarassed at own ignorance*

[InVinoVeritas]

http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php?t=301190 - file downloads section mate
You need:
A Selection of extra character heads *recommended*
Additional Voicesets I

[The Frenchman]

Many thanks InVinoVeritas... I'd not looked at that section for so long I forgot it was there... feel very silly now.
Downloading forthwith :)

[Earldrid]

I have to say I do like the ideas put forwards here. I agree that the leader of the goblin pack/horde/swarm will have a hard time rp'ing their position but there are good rp players on this server and I'm sure one of them could manage.

With regards to a guild, I feel that it doesn't quite seem to fit with the character of goblins. However, I do feel that Dol Guldur would benefit greatly from an organised little mob of goblins running around.

My main evil character, Kaldir Kalik, has had many enjoyable times rp'ing with ptolemys' goblin Vugnash, albeit, we never ventured outside the cavern of Dol Guldur! =)

I have also at times rp'd that Kalidr has an interest/task of assisting in the study of the breeding and cultivation of both orcs and goblins and as such feel that this would be reason enough to have a BN influence to guide the group. Whilst the BNs position would be very limited in terms of involvement with the group it would give another form of "authority" to the group and possibly help to reduce the "abuse" suffered by many orc and goblin players =)

By having a figure in a position of such authority it would allow rp of the fact that what the goblin group does is not decided by them and thus they are still servants of the Dark Lord, but it would allow the group to operate independantly in terms of actual play upon the server.

Ok, so I have rambled somewhat, anyway, good idea all round, and I can say Kaldir is very happy to see hordes of nasty little gobbos running around the dark places of the world.

[SNarfel]

If this is the preferred route, I would expand on your idea of Kaldir as being another figure of authority to having all such characters have the goblin group available to them as a resource whilst the goblins maintain their sub-culture in which they have their own leader so to speak.

Although I still am partial to creation of a non-Mordor aligned area for goblins ;), I know it would be a substantial resource commitment but reckon it would add an excellent facet to the server.

[Earldrid]

Totally agree with you SNarfel, I think that the creation of an area of the misty mountains set aside for independant goblins would be a fantastic addition to the server. If anything I think it would be preferable to the current situation of having to fit the goblins into settings already present.

The problem with the present situation is that any evil character of non goblin/orc race takes it as given that they have authority over goblins and orcs. If anything, my suggestion was an attempt at offering a possible way out of this, as if a particular character was "assigned" control of the goblin group, then they would not be at the bidding of others. Such a character would most likely be a DM controlled character.

[SNarfel]

Ahh, I see your point! Though I reckon even with an assigned authourity over goblins in Dol, most BN's would still be pushing them around and goblins would have no choice but to kiss boots or have boots applied firmly to butts! ;)

[Nolëtáro]

Well, I say enough is enough.

Anyone who has read the Lord of the Rings know Orcs are not the dimwits sometimes RPed by the players here, who often take on a Forgotten Realms-esque picture of Orcs.

Orcs are intelligent. They can form their own communities, and were able to survive through the Third Age without the leadership of the Nazgûl and Sauron (The Nazgûl because they were at hiding at first, and Sauron because he was much too weak after the loss of his ring). They certainly survived the fall of Sauron, since Mount Gundabad was never attacked and laid empty. Even if the Battle of the Five Armies diminished their numbers.

Quite honestly, the way I've seen certain orcs be RPed here has disgusted me to the very core. Same goes for goblins, too. I was expecting to find Tolkien's Orcs, filled with hatred towards themselves and their masters, bad-mouths that mangled any language they learned to their own filthy needs (Orcish dialects were incredibly diverse, the Black Speech was the only universally spoken tongue amongst orcs, and even so it was not well learned by even many of Sauron's servants, hence why conversation amongst orcs often went on in Westron), cowards that despise the sun light. Or even the Uruk variety, stronger, more resilient, more respectful and commanding, and even crueller thanks to their even greater intellects.

I do not wish to diminish the skills of the players, yet the truth is that too many have taken the D&D-cliché aproach of the dumb orc/half-orc who can't blabber a single sentence in his own language and just want tur bash headsies yus!

Thus, I have created an Uruk! And an Uruk with guile and wit, amazingly persuasive, a leader! A bad-mouth that speaks foul, yet still speaks right enough to offend and maim the opponent's morale! Dimwit monkeys, as Orcs have been roleplayed like, have no such effect, and they should have. Orcs are supposed to be feared. Who can fear someone who can't grap the right end of a blade?

Concluding; Orc RPing in general, be it Goblin, regular Orc or Uruk, needs work. Evolutive steps should be taken towards improving this aspect, since it is a well of uneplored surprises.

[InVinoVeritas]

Agreed Noletaro. - That's partially 'cause the mere hint that someone is Black Numenorean is suppose to scare the s^$t out of your goblin!:) hehe - Sorry Black Numenoreans - not my goblin. I think there's a misconception about BNs too for that matter. BNs in large part 99% are only pirates who mixed with the local population of Umbar. Only a fraction of them are important and have acquired the knowledge and the skill to use Black Magic and prolong their lives. But for my goblin it makes no difference whatsoever. He's got his own masters. Besides an average goblin with no lore whatsoever or low wis is not able to tell a silvan elf from a noldor. To him perception of others is seen as: longshanks, pointy ears, midget etc etc. So when you tell my goblin you're Black Numenorean it'll suddenly drop to its knees and beg for its life offering its eternal service. :) Don't think my goblin will but you can always try.

One more thing - Black Numenorean doesn't mean that you should always dress black like The Nine. :)

[DM_Kev]

I recently had a look at these goblin caves and they are pretty impressive. I've asked InVino to finish them.

If your lucky they may be in with the expansion.

[int19h]

I think there's a misconception about BNs too for that matter. BNs in large part 99% are only pirates who mixed with the local population of Umbar.
Erm, no. Pirates of Umbar were mostly Haradrim and other Southerners, perhaps a few mixed-bloods (partly Dunedain from the Kin-Strife or BNs). But BNs proper - the pure-blooded ones - are rare, but ever so more influential. Whether it should be so in Umbar according to the canon is debateful, but here we stick to Umbar as essentially BN-run place. Otherwise, we know that Sauron used BNs as his more trusted servants and lieutenants - so they would generally be important.

This isn't to say that what you're saying is wrong. Indeed, an orc/goblin would not grovel before any human he meets, or even any BN - only one who is either known as a representative of the Eye higher up the hierarchy, or otherwise managed to earn respect.

[SNarfel]

I see no problem at all with folks playing orcs as dumb, of all the Middle Earth races played here they are the most likely candidates for this and I see no discrepancy between playing them as such and the cannon. Yes, orcs are intelligent but compared to the other races they are still very dim in my opinion; be that because their intelligence cant get past their emotions or they are intrinsically less intelligent. Certainly their will be variance of intelligence and cunning between orcs but by far for the vast majority of cases this is going to appear insignificant to the casual outside observer, only someone who has spent time with the orc community will note this difference in my view. The more intelligent orc who can rise above his anger and hatred and exert leadership/authority outside his immediate circle without resort to intimidation and threats is going to be very rare indeed. In my view for most cases orc/goblin intelligence differences to the outsider are going to be subtle, but pronounced within the orc/goblin community in most cases; and I think our community is reasonably good in portraying this in most instances.

[Sonic Youth]

You hit the nail on the head Noletaro.

I think the problem is a lot of the people dont understand the difference between Forgotten realms goblins and Middle earth Goblins.
I'v been guilty of it myself, stuck somewhere in the confusion between the two. I find my goblin talking "Silence you maggots!" sometimes but on occasion losing myself and reverting to a more AD&D style "Mii kill yuu!".
Over time I became aware of it and tried justify it by playing that he only talks dum dum talk when he's scared but since I got him remade i'v tried to make a greater effort.

Hopefully some folks will take notice of your post and we can start to become a more ruthless, smarter band of goblins and orcs!

[SNarfel]

I strongly disagree with the view that the community hasn't been role playing goblins orcs appropriatly. The fact is that there has never been an orc/goblin community on the server, often there has been one orc/goblin amongst humans in a party and so some of the comments being made in some posts are somewhat basless in suggesting the portrayol of goblins and orcs has been wrong. The context in which orcs and goblins have taken part in parties for the most part has only allowed for a narrow portrayol of orcs. It's only with InVino's suggestion of a goblin band that there has been opportunity to show the more subtle aspects of goblin/orc society and that is in its very early days. Suggestions/advice for the future rp in this new context is cool, but retrospective undermining of quality orc/goblin rp is a little unfair.

[Sonic Youth]

Sometimes when i'v shared the company of goblins its been great!
But other times its approaching a parody...

I understand what you mean tho snarfel about it being early days yet but i think Noletaro's comments are the right direction for the comunity to progress.

[int19h]

I strongly disagree with the view that the community hasn't been role playing goblins orcs appropriatly.
I'd have to disagree with the disagreement. There has been orc parties before, and for the most part, those has been the "mes kill yus!" type of orcs (that said, I'm guilty of playing one such myself...). The point is that this is not what Tolkien Orcs are meant to be. We have a few examples of orcs speaking from the books - can you recall one single instance where they spoke thus?

For that matter, I think that this is worsened by the fact that manual recommends orcs to stay below INT10. I agree the orcs aren't meant to be smart, but they don't seem to be dumber than an average human commoner either, and can occasionally be more cunning. This would imply that INT10 is a perfectly good stat for the majority of orcs out there, and INT8 would be a dimwit even among orcs.

[SNarfel]

Parties where rp has been a parody happens from time to time across the spectrum of races. In my view orcs, even Tolkien Orcs are, for various reasons, dumber than the average human commoner. I accept the point regarding the manual though, intelligence cap should exist but is perhaps too low. My view remains unchanged on the general quality of past orc rp; the two contexts, of then and currant discussion, are not comparable in my mind. In the past there was no particular aspiration for a server based orc community with a social pull on orc behaviour for those orcs belonging to it; and so most orc rp, in my opinion had quite a limited canvas; despite this limitation I saw some brilliant role playing. Now that we have interest in such a community and once it is in full swing, I have no doubt we will see equally entertaining rp around what in my mind is as yet an undiscovered country.

[Nolëtáro]

I subscribe entirely, int19h.

I would say the highest INT an orc could reach is perhaps 14, and even so for the brightest, the cream of the crop, the leaders. 10 is the average, 12 above average. And if you know the Half-Orc penalties, you'd see that it's quite hard to reach a high INT due to the inherent INT penalty they have. And this is why most Orcs cannot practice dark sorcery, they fail to grasp their meaning. Yet all Orcs channel Sauron's anger, some more than others. They are quite fitting for Clerics, if under Sauron's rule.

[Nolëtáro]

Parties where rp has been a parody happens from time to time across the spectrum of races. In my view orcs, even Tolkien Orcs are, for various reasons, dumber than the average human commoner.

[...]He struggled a little, quite uselessly. One of the Orcs sitting near laughed and said something to a companion in their abominable tongue. 'Rest while you can, little fool!' he said then to Pippin, in the Common Speech, which he made almost as hideous as his own language. 'Rest while you can! We'll find a use for your legs before long. You'll wish you had got none before we get home.'
'If I had my way, you'd wish you were dead now,' said the other. 'I'd make you squeak, you miserable rat.' He stooped over Pippin bringing his yellow fangs close to his face. He had a black knife with a long jagged blade in his hand. 'Lie quiet, or I'll tickle you with this,' he hissed. 'Don't draw attention to yourself, or I may forget my orders. Curse the Isengarders! Uglъk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob bъbhosh skai': he passed into a long angry speech in his own tongue that slowly died away into muttering and snarling.[...]


[...]To Pippin's surprise he found that much of the talk was intelligible many of the Orcs were using ordinary language. Apparently the members of two or three quite different tribes were present, and they could not understand one another's orc-speech. There was an angry debate concerning what they were to do now: which way they were to take and what should be done with the prisoners.
'There's no time to kill them properly,' said one. 'No time for play on this trip.'
'That can't be helped,' said another. 'But why not kill them quick, kill them now? They're a cursed nuisance, and we're in a hurry. Evening's coming on, and we ought to get a move on.'
'Orders.' said a third voice in a deep growl. 'Kill all but NOT the Halfings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That's my orders.'
'What are they wanted for?' asked several voices. 'Why alive? Do they give good sport?'
'No! I heard that one of them has got something, something that's wanted for the War, some elvish plot or other. Anyway they'll both be questioned.'
'Is that all you know? Why don't we search them and find out? We might find something that we could use ourselves.'
'That is a very interesting remark,' sneered a voice, softer than the others but more evil. 'I may have to report that. The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered: those are my orders.'
'And mine too,' said the deep voice. 'Alive and as captured; no spoiling. That's my orders.'
'Not our orders!' said one of the earlier voices. 'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.'
'Then you can wish again,' said the growling voice. 'I am Uglúk. I command. I return to Isengard by the shortest road.'
'Is Saruman the master or the Great Eye?' said the evil voice. 'We should go back at once to Lugbúrz.'
'If we could cross the Great River, we might,' said another voice. 'But there are not enough of us to venture down to the bridges.'[...]


Dumber than the average commoner, you say? They are capable of plotting and deciding roads no mere commoner would imagine.

[SNarfel]

No need for lengthy quotes on my part, I have read the books and my views are considered of the content thereof, we will just have to agree to disagree on the comparison of average orc intellect as compared to average human commoner.

[Nolëtáro]

=_=

=_o

^_^

[Steve-Law]

We've had this particular debate several times. The end result of every such debate was that on this server, the Develpment team/DMs prefer to take the dumb brute angle for orcs/orc-kin played here. And at the end of the day, that's what counts here.

For UTT3, there may be a lot more mileage in this debate, but for UTT2, I think it's beyond moot now.

[Steve-Law]

(Here's a quick google)

http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php?t=314279
http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php?t=313355

[InVinoVeritas]

We've had this particular debate several times. The end result of every such debate was that on this server, the Develpment team/DMs prefer to take the dumb brute angle for orcs/orc-kin played here. And at the end of the day, that's what counts here.

For UTT3, there may be a lot more mileage in this debate, but for UTT2, I think it's beyond moot now.



Here's something from the dev's point of view.

http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php?t=316534

Intepret int 10-14 as you want to but IMO it's certainly not dumb. Orcs - maybe - ologs - sure - but not goblins - goblins are weaker physically but certainly more cunning. This thread I presume pertains to goblins.

[Jarmov]

Hello! Even though I do not have a goblin character I would like to express my opinion. Some of the things I wanted to say were already said by Nolëtáro, but here are a few thoughts...

Orcs and goblins do not speak Black Speech, nor should every other evil character. I have seen too many characters on the server speak the Black Speech. This is what it is said about Black Speech and orc language in the appendix of LoTR

It is said that they bad no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their own liking; yet they made only brutal jargons, scarcely sufficient even for their own needs, unless it were for
curses and abuse. And these creatures, being filled with malice, hating eventheir own kind, quickly developed as many barbarous dialects as there were groups or settlements of their race, so that their Orkish speech was of little
use to them in intercourse between different tribes.

So it was that in the Third Age Orcs used for communication between breed and breed the Westron tongue; and many indeed of the older tribes, such as those that still lingered in the North and in the Misty Mountains,
had long used the Westron as their native language, though in such a fashion as to make it hardly less unlovely than Orkish.

It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose. From the Black Speech, however, were
derived many of the words that were in the Third Age wide-spread among the Orcs, such as ghâsh 'fire', but after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl. When Sauron
arose again, it became once more the language of Barad-dûr and of the captains of Mordor.

So, the fact that orcs cannot fathom a proper language indicates a low intelligence. Keep in mind that the orcs that Nolëtáro quoted were elite forces of Isengard and Mordor, despite the orcs that came from the Misty Mountains (those are you guys ;)). By all means this does not mean that your goblins could not be cunning.

My view of orcs and goblins is that they are beasts who hate themselves as much as they hate other races. This hate drives them forward to do their wicked deeds. Orcs and goblins are bold in large groups but rather cowards in small groups. Remember that the normal orcs are smaller than the average human. In small groups they would not dare to attack a mannish party. Tolkien has described orcs as mainly being battle fodder driven by the evil will of their master. Uruk-hai, on the other hand are another matter.

As to the question of BNs automatically commanding orcs and goblins? No, of course not. I'd say it would depend on the character and his rank. In Dol Guldur and Mordor a BN might and probably would have the rank to command every goblin/orc he sees, but the orcs elsewhere would not automatically recognize his authority. Orcs are led by fear and no single human has that ability. Besides, I think that no human would like to linger around orcs anyway.

Btw, here is a link to an essay that examines Tolkien's orcs. You should read it. http://www.ansereg.com/unnatural_history_of_orcs.htm

I hope that one day I get to see your goblin horde and hopefully see that they are well played to the spirit of Tolkien and not to some other fantasy world.

[Steve-Law]

Intepret int 10-14 as you want to but IMO it's certainly not dumb. Orcs - maybe - ologs - sure - but not goblins - goblins are weaker physically but certainly more cunning. This thread I presume pertains to goblins.

Yes Vino, I know, I was really addressing the orcs point-of-view as raised in the latest part of the thread.

Anyone who has read the Lord of the Rings know Orcs are not the dimwits sometimes RPed by the players here, who often take on a Forgotten Realms-esque picture of Orcs.

And there has also been some debate in the past about whether goblins are actually just smaller orcs, or a race in its own right. (Let the more intelligent orcs be the goblins, and the dumber but stronger ones be the "orcs" I suppose.)

Not being able to "see" a character's intelligent score, I can't say how well their rp matches their abilities. Mine has average intelligence (10 or 11 I think) and I started playing it talking more "normally", but it just stood out like a sore thumb so I dumbed it down to fit with the majority of the group. Sometimes it feels wrong, but I hardly lose any sleep over it. :)

Most of the time I justify "Me kills elfs!" as being just "I greatly desire to kill elven enemies for the Dark Lord!" mangled beyond recognition by their poor language skills coupled with their misshapen heads and mouths filled with huge fangs... ;)

[Jarmov]

I would not call them goblins at all but orcs of smaller breed. After the Hobbit Tolkien seems to have dropped out the word goblin and hob-goblin.

[Steve-Law]

Quite. So in fact we allow Orcs of up to 14 intelligence (well above the average human in the street I'd say). The balancing point, however, is that if you want your Orc to go over 12, you play it as a small orc (i.e. goblin) where its lack of physical strength compared to its peers (limited to 16) means it must have some other advantage to allow survival e.g. a greater intelligence/cunning (in this case), or spell casting, or dexterity (if you want to go over 14), or sneakiness, etc.

So yes, there is allowance for a greater range of Orc RP, but that doesn't mean one approach is any more wrong or right than any other.

[InVinoVeritas]

I didn't mean a different race - and I agree with you SL - the smaller ones are the more cunnin' sort - same species. Higher intelligence I see not in terms of the number of languages a goblin can speak 'cause it would be a ridiculous idea. Int 14 could be interpreted as a goblin's capability to construct let's say machines / devices of torture, predisposition to become a smithy. I found no references to goblin - magic users - and I personally oppose such ideas but obviously it's only my point of view.

[vulpex]

Tolkien mentioned about orc and speech that they speak westron in debased and wicked way. He seemed to imply that coarse and brutish language was part of their "evilness". Still no need for "Me kills lots", but perhaps some "Ag, if yose is smart, yose does as high boss says"
This is bit same as our scottish accent dwarves, not so in books, but i find them fitting. But admit going more to guarded and carefull common speech with my dwarf of late.
All in all, i see it not as such a big deal, what we really do not need is party line how to properly do this and that :)

[vulpex]

About orcs talking, there is also enviroment affecting their language. If you have grown up in breeding pits, you dont talk like english butler :)

[vulpex]

Language is also affected by enviroment, not just intelligence. If you have grown up in breeding pits, you do not talk like english butler :)

[vulpex]

Aww, sorry all. My sends got weirdly stopped and i ended with multiples. I am a noob and sorry :)

[InVinoVeritas]

Accepted you noob! :) hahahah

[Sonic Youth]

English butler, no.
Cockney sleeeeg, perhaps.
:P

[DM_Kev]

Orcs will need a polish on the updated manual for the expansion. That includes Goblins as we simply treat these as smaller Orcs.

Intelligence - I think its becoming quite accepable for Orcs to have average-slightly above average intelligence. Many orcs possess intelligence, though of a different kind to other races. They are intelligent and cunning when it comes to war and doing/creating evil things.

Speech - We are not going to tell people how to roleplay an orc to the letter. What we can do is offer recommendations as we do now. We may consider a shift more in the direction of speech as seen in the texts, which is a crude speech with a lot of slang. Very thuggish, loutish behaviour as a whole.

[Steve-Law]

English butler, no.
Cockney sleeeeg, perhaps.
:P

Orcs as Chavs... hmm...

[vulpex]

And no offence meant to butlers be they english or not :)

[Steve-Law]

And no offence meant to butlers be they english or not :)

Lucky escape Vulp, Jarvis here was after your blood until then ;)

[vulpex]

There is one side of playing orc social game, there is allways present real possibility to get killed in very nasty ways.
That side is easy to forget with nice PvP rules and the fact that no one really dies.
But let us assume scenario, where where common orc behaves too much out of line, concequenses would not be harsh words but violence. That can come from either stronger ones or from the large horde of orcs around in any self respecting Evil Stronghold.
And just in case, let it be said that last thing i want is free for all murdering party, it just bears to remember that it will be an real danger for any character.

Off with their heads and so on :)

[SNarfel]

My gobo is particularly aggressive and rebellious in a brainless sorta way, so I would certainly expect it to get a thorough threshing within an inch of its life to keep it in line from time to time.

[clone number 3]

I would certainly expect it to get a thorough threshing within an inch of its life to keep it in line from time to time.

Keep it in the bedroom please mate! :cheese:

[SNarfel]

Heck no! :P

[InVinoVeritas]

The-all-knowing Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)

Nice list of historical goblin figures can be found there too. Enjoy :)

[InVinoVeritas]

Grr!

This link not the previous one grrrrr! My mistake I'm a noob this time!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29

[Nolëtáro]

An advice.

Do not rely on Wikipedia for information. Many of it's entries can be both badly composed and vandalized by whatever non-life-whatsoever idiot that crowds this world.

Fortunately, it is not the case here. The info is pretty well summarized. (I believe I know one of those who contributed for the entries, a Loremaster greater than I) It should be absolutely standard reading for those wishing to know more about the subject.

[int19h]

Do not rely on Wikipedia for information. Many of it's entries can be both badly composed and vandalized by whatever non-life-whatsoever idiot that crowds this world.
Correction: do not rely on Wikipedia when it comes to history, politology, sociology etc. For technical sciences, it is usually okay. For obscure geekdom things (such as Middle Earth ;) it shines.

[Steve-Law]

Still contributing Int? ;)

[InVinoVeritas]

An advice.

Do not rely on Wikipedia for information. Many of it's entries can be both badly composed and vandalized by whatever non-life-whatsoever idiot that crowds this world.

Fortunately, it is not the case here. The info is pretty well summarized. (I believe I know one of those who contributed for the entries, a Loremaster greater than I) It should be absolutely standard reading for those wishing to know more about the subject.

That's what I thought otherwise I wouldn't have submitted that link.

[Guyror]

Concerning Goblins.. I just found this which is rather amusing to me.

http://www.goblinscomic.com/

[Nolëtáro]

Correction: do not rely on Wikipedia when it comes to history, politology, sociology etc. For technical sciences, it is usually okay. For obscure geekdom things (such as Middle Earth ;) it shines.Not actually, my friend.

I have read numerous reports of attacks on Wookiepedia articles and several Middle-earth related articles as well.

Wikipedia in general is a cesspool of easily manipulated information, and must be searched with care and backed by a second source, whatever the subject.

[InVinoVeritas]

Not actually, my friend.

I have read numerous reports of attacks on Wookiepedia articles and several Middle-earth related articles as well.

Wikipedia in general is a cesspool of easily manipulated information, and must be searched with care and backed by a second source, whatever the subject.

That's interesting hm...I know about wiki in general and have heard some rumours. Can you send me a link to these reports that you've read? (about Middle Earth particularly)

[Nolëtáro]

The report I heard came from the Loremaster I said I knew. He had made some additions to an entry I no longer remember, and they were vandalized by Eru knows who.

It's a sad world when people vandalize for no apparent reason knowledge that harms no one =_=

[int19h]

Noletaro, I'm a fairly active Wikipedian, so I know how it works from first-hand experience. Yes, Wikipedia articles can be, and are, vandalised. However, experiments have shown that the average time it takes for the community to fix vandalism is ~15 seconds. I'll let you draw your own conclusions from that.

As for your loremaster friend, why not tell which article he contributed to? All article changes remain in its changelog, so we should be able to track down the vandal, and take appropriate measures so that such things will not repeat again from that person at least. I have many articles (ME ones in particular) in my watchlist myself and keep an eye on them; I wouldn't mind adding a couple more to the list.

[Nolëtáro]

Well that's the case, lad, I no longer remember which article he contributed to, or by which name he did it =_=

We haven't talked in well over two years. :P

[InVinoVeritas]

Don't worry mate - you obviously know a lot mate. My knowledge about Tolkien goes as deep as The Hobbit / Trilogy + Sillymarillion some time ago. Mistake do happen but I've always found wiki a great source of info. Hope it works for you too Nole.