View Full Version : *concerning horses*
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 02:23
- nah not you Urmhaur Horsekiler *grins* my goblin is goin' to ride you one day! hah...
Well horses horses I think they have become too popular on this server and everyone seems to be kickin' around on them. In today's event with DM Elbereth (bless it - check the Praise thread) we were ambushed by assasins and my horse got killed. I asked DM to remove my horse token (not all players would ask for such thing as it costs a bit). Since then I haven't bought a horse, even though I can because my character was attached to his old one and I think horses should be more expensive...
More skins for them would be nice too - skins are not a problem I could do 'em up myself 'cause white/ brown/ black ...that's all we got currently.
Currently 1200 for a steed is far too low a price I think. Horses should be more expensive or / and I'd like to see them as quest rewards to players (named / personalised horses - simple name generator will do)... What do you think chaps?
Ah in areas like Rivendell for instance it would be nice to have an area where players can keep their horses during their stay / rp - like small stables or not even stables just a small stretch of land will do.
Bottom line - increase the price please and/or give them as quest rewards - Rohirrim quest rewards for instance
PS Even though I lost my horse in the battle It would take me 5 minutes to get a new one the way it is now...
Dakota Strider
05-08-2007, 06:31
Well, if you don't want a horse, don't buy one. But its perfectably reasonable for characters to have them. Its been well thought out long before you got here, and most people seem to like them. But if it bothers you, noone will force you to ride them.
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 08:27
*Goes all misty eyed* By heck lad, I remember when we had to walk everywhere... (Images of everyone walking from the Shire to Gondor with Monty Python Coconut Horses...)
Until the patch of '68 the Dev team were always dead against horses despite much player request, the 1.68 implementation, while far from perfect, was deemed good enough to at last give the players horses. This is also why a lot of areas are just not built to accommodate horses. I'm sure that's something that will be addressed if and when areas are rebuilt. Until then, we just RP around it like we've always done with anything that doesn't quite fit. Come on Vino, you can do it, I know you can ;)
Yes, in reality they probably should be (a lot) more expensive, but if that were the case then we'd get those complaining that "horses are too expensive". You can't please all of the people all of the time...
Really, there's not a huge advantage to having a horse other than as an RP aid. If you ask nicely and have a good reason, you can often get "RP aids" for free from a DM, so the price of a horse is a fair compromise I'd say. Most characters can get a horse/pony early on in their career without crippling their development/growth (i.e. scrimping on weapons/armour upgrades).
If we had "grades" of horse, i.e. better trained in battle, faster, tougher, stronger, etc, etc, then we could have a variable price range, but as it is (and most likely how it will stay) just leave it as it is. Fix some of the scripting issues by all means, but prices and availability are fine.
I'd have to agree with the arguments in favour of horses.
In the expansion, we even intend to increase the number of horse sellers and we may just introduce horse "grades".
clone number 3
05-08-2007, 10:17
It took months of whining to get horses, don't take them away!!
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 10:19
(and most likely how it will stay)
and we may just introduce horse "grades".
Well, it's good to feel stupid for once :) Nice.
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 10:20
It took months of whining to get horses, don't take them away!!
Should that be "whinnying"? ;)
I agree, the horses are fine. I don't even think they are all that cheap, since the only advantage they give you is that of moving between areas faster (well, theoretically, in battle, too - but I haven't seen that being abused).
My only hope is that, when 1.69 is released, it adds support for the better-looking (and working!) horses from DLA (those we saw in WCoC), and it is used on the server, all with the nice mounted combat feats, Ride skill, and Summon Mount for paladins.
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 11:05
Did I say take them away? I just thought it would be reasonable to see that not every PC character does / can ride one. Clumsy characters for instace wouldn't be able to ride them or characters who haven't received special training (could be a horse training token for instance) Instead you just buy a horse and that's it - and it's cheap too.
*Dakota*
I don't think you read my post thoroughly. In case you missed something - please read it again.
In RL I'm a horse-riding enthusiast and I know how long it takes to learn to ride them...Not to mention - GALLOP them
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 11:07
Did I say take them away? I just it would be reasonable to see that no every PC character does / can ride one. Clumsy characters for instace wouldn't be able to ride them or characters who haven't received special training (could be a horse training token for instance) Instead you just buy a horse and that's it.
My Dwarf will never buy one, nor will my Goblin (unless he's desperately hungry :) )
I do like the idea of adding some factors (like with grappling but much simpler) that affect riding. i.e. minimum DEX, slow down if heavily laden, etc. Maybe even a horse riding feat/skill (not sure how the skill would be used though other than a can you/can't you minimum skill to be able to ride).
I also like the horses, they confir no major advantage other than making it ok to run for a longer period, which has improved the server as folk are far less likely to run on foot across areas. They also add a small but nice rp dimension. Although it can get alittle tricky sometimes, eg left horses outside trollshaws, been in the shaws perhaps for a whole day hunting trolls and gobos and on return, oh look the horses are still there, they havent wondered off or been stolen ;). But a small price to pay for an overall excellent addition to the serer as far as I am concerned :).
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 11:09
*Steve*
I know that neither my goblin will buy a horse or venture into neutral / good areas but...This matter concerns more men and elves. And again I repeat I didn't say take them away. This *Training Token* modification is easy to implement. Yes elves love animals and nature and have natural predisposition to make friends with animals but that doesn't make them natural riders that can mount a horse (upon seeing it first time in their lives) and speed away in gallop. *Horse-riding Training Token* would be nice and it's a 1 line change to the script. 2 lines max.
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 11:14
No, I agree that the training side could be a useful addition. You were originally talking about cost though.
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 11:16
Something that would make them a bit harder to get Steve. Both price or *training token* could sort this out - but to be honest - training token is more reasonable here. It would give you the sense of achievement - I have a nice idea for a quest that would include getting this token... :) Obviously there could be a few places around ME where you could get your *training token* - the most obvious one - Rohan. Rohirrim characters though could / should receive this token upon character generation - either given by dms alone with their horse tokens or - appointed automatically by a script. And again - it's a simple subrace check script which would take me - not a pro scripter - 5 minutes...
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 11:26
I wouldn't restrict it to Rohan. Training should be available anywhere. Even Hobbits rode ponies without ever visiting (or even knowing about) Rohan.
If horse "grades" do come in then Rohan would have better ones, but other wise, horse/pony riding is more or less universal across Middle Earth. (yeah, some would ride camels or Wargs or whatever, but we don't have those yet :) )
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 11:29
Obviously there could be a few places around ME where you could get your *training token* - the most obvious one - Rohan.
There you go again.
Good points Invino but all of them are more community rp related in my opinion and dont need intervention from Admin.
I think prices are fine, RP wise our characters in most cases are above average in ability and means compared to the commonors of Middle Earth and so the basic horse should be within their means more or less from the start, as it is. If a player has created a character who is of poor background it is for them to remain true to that character and purchase a horse when they deem it reasonable.
If a horse dies, yes players can just summon another, as yet I have never seen this happen and again it is for the community to be true to itself and not abuse this. For rp realism may be when a horse dies the player should loose the token so that their is a cost implication for losing a horse but thats a slightly different matter from the summoning immediatly after a horse dies.
As yet I have never seen goblins or orcs riding a horse (not even sure if orcs can), ofcourse this would be inapproriate but again the community itself is the driving force for the server and this is not abused to my knowledge at least.
Dwarves I have "occsaionaly" seen riding ponies. I dont see a problem with this either.
Having said that, sure it would be nice if the server did automaticaly see to this but if our community can be sensible about such things (which it is!) the dev team can put its efforts to improving such things as more range of horses, more quests, new areas.. etc :)
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 11:31
There you go again.
Yes, but the rest of the post concentrated on Rohan/Rohirrim. Stop being so defensive Vino, I've been agreeing with you about training :)
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 11:36
Good points Invino but all of them are more community rp related in my opinion and dont need intervention from Admin.
I think prices are fine, RP wise our characters in most cases are above average in ability and means compared to the commonors of Middle Earth and so the basic horse should be within their means more or less from the start, as it is. If a player has created a character who is of poor background it is for them to remain true to that character and purchase a horse when they deem it reasonable.
If a horse dies, yes players can just summon another, as yet I have never seen this happen and again it is for the community to be true to itself and not abuse this. For rp realism may be when a horse dies the player should loose the token so that their is a cost implication for losing a horse but thats a slightly different matter from the summoning immediatly after a horse dies.
Another good idea Snarfel - when a horse dies - player looses his token - great! That's what I'm talkin' about. But I don't agree with basing your explanation for horse-riding on high stats. Horse-riding is not a naturally-acquired skill you're born with. It requires training. Trust me I know something about it after falling off a few times (LOL) - and I am - IRL physically agile. Well that's at least what people say - they're wrong most certainly! hah
For rp realism may be when a horse dies the player should loose the token
I like this idea.
Dwarves I have "occsaionaly" seen riding ponies. I dont see a problem with this either.
I do not see a problem with this either.
Concerning goblins/orcs riding horses. Is it possible to script the horses hostile against goblins and orcs? I think that would be a good solution since goblins and orcs would scare horses in reality.
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 12:53
I was just informed byt *int* that a lot will change - in terms of horses - with the oncomin' updated 1.69. In that case it might be a waste of time to implement changes atm.
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 13:04
Is either 1.69, or that it will have DLA horses, definitely on the cards?
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 13:15
Ask Int for details - he mentioned ride skills too! woo hoo!
Sonic Youth
05-08-2007, 13:22
Good thread. Made me think about something...
Is it possible to impliment Wargs for Goblins?.
They should be rare, probably mid lvl quest rewards as not all goblins should have access.
Perhaps class restricted to Rogues/Rangers so only scouts could use them.
Any thoughts?
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 13:36
I seem to remember Gwaihir playing with a goblin -> warg rider script some time ago... *nudge*
Dakota Strider
05-08-2007, 13:46
It does not take a lot of training to just ride a horse that has already been trained. A character would not need to be trained specifically just to use a horse for transportation. And definitely would not need empathy to be able to handle a horse. Further training for the horse and rider would be necessary for a horse to be very useful in battle. In a ME setting, horses would be very common for anyone that would be able to afford them, and would take less training then lets say, learning to drive a car? It seemed to me, almost everyone in my country knows how to drive to some degree, and horses are a lot more forgiving for human error then a car is, so you don't need to worry about them crashing as often.
When it comes to horses, I like to think I am a little bit of an authority. I grew up on a cattle ranch, and trained horses myself, and have been riding horses since age five. I like to think I am a skilled rider, but I have seen people that have never ridden before, get up on a horse that has been trained to the saddle and bridle, and have little difficulty. So I see no problem with the horses being used as they are in the game currently. As I said in my original post in this thread, if you don't like the horses as they are used, noone is forcing you to use them. However, please don't try to legislate them away (or make them more difficult to acquire) from the rest of the people that enjoy them.
DM__Sauron
05-08-2007, 13:48
AS I mentioned in an earlier thread Steve, we have the trchnology for the a Worg, it was gwahirs desire that such a thing only be given as a reward for outstanding RP by a goblin.
Is either 1.69, or that it will have DLA horses, definitely on the cards?
From what I know, 1.69 is pretty certain to be released this year. As for whether DLA horses will be there, there is no guarantee (same as with everything else, really - we don't have any official changelog for 1.69 yet), but it seems likely, since integrating new features from the premium mods seem to be what the patch is all about, and DLA horses in particular are on the top of the community wishlist.
AS I mentioned in an earlier thread Steve, we have the trchnology for the a Worg, it was gwahirs desire that such a thing only be given as a reward for outstanding RP by a goblin.
Will outstanding RP by a high-level good-aligned Sorcerer be a way to acquire a giant Eagle mount? ;)
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 14:15
Great to hear about this goblin thing! Well I grew up on a ranch myself but natural born riders are as rare as blue diamonds. Some people are predisposed (small fraction) - but most need training - even good riders still have a lot to lear.
Normally this is how it ends:
http://www.nature.com/sc/journal/v40/n6/full/3101280a.html
Regarding the license thing:
http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html
Dakota: So if I was a complete stranger and a newbie rider visiting your ranch you'd just put me on a horse and smack it on its butt right?
Dakota Strider
05-08-2007, 14:23
I will say that there is one thing I have always thought would improve the RP of people using horses: Namely, add stables throughout the towns and cities, for place that people can dismount, and retrieve their horses from. I almost always use the stable in Bree, if I am dismounting, or mounting my horse. However, there should be one in every town, and in a city like Tharbad, there should be at least one in every section of the city, and possibly one by each gate. It would not have to be anything more then a store front. PC's would not even have to enter them, or it could be an outside stall area. Just a place that PC's can rp taking their horses to for rest, while they conduct their business on foot in the town.
I certainly would not be in favour aiming for real simulation of horseriding which is what I read in to one or two posts. For me the long and short of it is that I dont consider them too easy/cheap to get at the moment and I would not want to see that aspect changed. additions to the current system and improvements such as the token being lost on horse death I would welcome if the Dev team has the time to develope :)
InVinoVeritas
05-08-2007, 14:29
Well I'll just wait fo 1.69 and hope for the ride skill to be implemented :P But the real simulation of horse-riding I'm opposed to as well Snarfel. I hope this ride-skill system will be easy and simple - but I personally think it will. The Devs won't in my opinion dedicate a lot of time to this single aspect however it will be a very nice addition - and it will come for free with the NWN update. Who knows maybe - they'll do something with the token too and the rest of these issues...I can't wait to it with my own eyes...
And I agree with Dakota like I mentioned in my original post - areas - stretches of lawn - for horses (or stables) would be nice - but it would be technically better if they were on the main map. In Rivendell for instance - main map - somewhere in the corner. Otherwise if you leave your horse somewhere else - it will spawn on you after a while I think whereas if you leave your mount in the same area you can simply right-click and use voice-chat (stand guard) and it stays.
Besides loading takes a while too. Going into the stables - just to get your horse - and then going back might take a while (graph connection - loading time). Even though I had a system upgrade and run nwn in full detail now in a window...and it's very smooth and lovely...some people are runnin' it like I used to - on old machines. I wouldn't like it if things were made more difficult for them.
Steve-Law
05-08-2007, 14:44
AS I mentioned in an earlier thread Steve, we have the trchnology for the a Worg, it was gwahirs desire that such a thing only be given as a reward for outstanding RP by a goblin.
Give me a break, I can't catch up with everything over the last six months ;)
Fair enough though.
Sidenote, us uruks do not ride hosses, we run like proper orcses.
On horses a request please - I played for a bit earlier today with one of my lesser known characters who was very suprised to find someones horse in the Prancing Pony in Bree. Dismiss them before you log out folks - and don't take them in to buildings.
Cheers
Any people with horses in interiors will be charged for building repairs!
Please don't do it folks.
Might happen you crash with horse, then one is left after you. But inside houses is _very_ good point.
Dakota Strider
05-08-2007, 23:52
One of the bugs with the current horse system, (though not sure if bug is proper term) is if a character disconnects for any reason, while the horse is summoned, especially if riding the horse, the horse does not disappear. If a rider crashes, and returns, the horse is still under him, even though it does not show as a companion. The Dismount token will get the rider off the horse, but it cannot be dismissed. And in these cases, sometimes the horse will follow the owner into a building, outside of the rider's control.
It's probably more a quirk of the system than a bug we can control, but there's usually DM's in mIRC who would be happy to deal with any rogue horses in these cases.
Steve-Law
06-08-2007, 07:51
I've found it to be more common than the odd occasion. Unless I'm doing something wrong. During one night I had 3 or 4 broken horses with the same character (it wasn't just me). Granted, none of them ended inside a building :)
What is the "correct" procedure for using a horse? i.e. after dismount, always use find horse? (That's what I try.) Is there a way to help this along? e.g. sometimes I've dismounted and the horse reappears beside me, more often it doesn't. Is there a trick to it? (It can get quite frustrating.)
Having never used a horse myself - not having played for a while and what have you - I'm afraid I have no idea how they work.
Find horse rarely works for me, on dismounting if the horse doesnt appear next to my character after a few seconds I bypass find horse and use the stable token and then re-summon the horse if still needed.
Find horse rarely works for me, on dismounting if the horse doesnt appear next to my character after a few seconds I bypass find horse and use the stable token and then re-summon the horse if still needed.
This is the best way around it that I've found. Which suggests that we'd be better off having the stable command executed as part of the dismount process. I suspect that this script is doing more than it really needs to still and would be intrigued to know whether Steve has had the opportunity to look at it yet. The Horse will always appear eventually if you are patient but in most circumstances it takes so long it starts to interrupt the roleplay or you forget to wait only to have it appear next to you in the middle of the Greyflood. Clearly not ideal :(
Steve-Law
06-08-2007, 11:00
Oh, I was waiting for the official go ahead... consider it looked at (tonight). (If someone wants to erf it up for me it will be helpful, but not to worry, I still have a plan ;) )
I would just like to say some things about this too.
First, I don't really see what the problem is. If I read the first post, it seems Vino just thinks there are too many players using horses. Surely, this can't be a proper argument to start changing things? Why take horses away from half these people while they too have all the right to use them if they want?
I am all for more realism, but there is fairness in gameplay to be considered too. Making horses more expensive and giving them higher requirements takes horses away from the low-level characters, giving them yet another rp-limitation. The skill/training feature might or might not have this consequence, depending on the way it is implemented. Though, if it is implemented in a fair way, it will not reduce the number of horses used.
Yes, there would be people in a world unable to ride a horse. But I think it is the choice of the player wether or not his character can ride horses, not the choice of an admin. The players here seem mature enough not to abuse horses or to use them in an rp-manner if they want, so a skill-system isn't even necessary. I do like the idea of removing the token on a horse's death.
Sonic Youth
06-08-2007, 13:21
Dakota; completely with you on the stables front mate.
It would make a lot of sense to me if horses had to be retrieved from stables rather than the horse mystically appearing (Perhaps this ability to 'call' the horse should be reserved for rangers, druids and sorcerers? Maybe elves too for their tie with nature?). - but we should also be able to send the horses away to a stable (Perhaps a D20 is rolled and on a 1 the horse dies along ther way to the stable?) or tell them to stay put also.
AS I mentioned in an earlier thread Steve, we have the trchnology for the a Worg, it was gwahirs desire that such a thing only be given as a reward for outstanding RP by a goblin.
Perfect! :dancin:
There are two basic ways to create realism in a persistant world. The first is by scripting. The second is by RP.
There is a certain balance to be sought between these, but in my opinion as much as possible should be left to RP. Why? Because I think scripts can only promote realism, and scripted realism should promote RP. All kinds of little scripts to promote 'realism', like having a % chance of your horse dying when walking to a stable, doesn't really promote RP. It only serves to be annoying. This also includes the skill/training idea. Running to a training station and do a quick quest so you can ride horses is not rp, and it is not realistic. Finding a Rohirrim pc and ask him to teach you how to ride. That is real RP.
In the end, game mechanics do not REALLY make realism. Of course they are needed, and they can promote realism. But in the end it's RP that makes them realistic, and if a 'realism script' doesn't promote rp, it doesn't promote realism. I hope my point is a bit clear.
Dakota Strider
06-08-2007, 15:22
First of all I want to clarify something I said. When I suggested stable areas, to be built in cities and towns to promote RP, I in no way intended that to mean, it would change the current mechanics of how horses are currently used. There would be no reason for PC's to have to actually interact with a stable, just something that can be used as a prop, so that when someone says they are going to go stable their horse, there is actually a place they can go. Like I said before, just a store front would be all that is needed, you don't need to enter it, or talk to anyone. Just a minor thing to enhance the immersion into the game and help rp.
I think nothing should be done that limits players from using horses. Horses would be very common to anyone that can use them. Its a matter of choice if you want to rp the way your character deals with horses differently then someone else. At this point, I do not think a horse dying should cause the loss of a token. Horses should be much more hardy then a simple 11 hp, and sometimes horses run and attack things which is totally out of character for a horse. If anything, they should run away, much as a deer does. Sometimes the best intentions can go awry, and accidents do happen that should not be penalized by draconion methods to make things rough on PC's. Imagine a Rohan character, that saves all of their starting money, to raise the amount to get a horse as soon as possible to match the way he feels his character should be played. Some weird accident happens, and now he is out all his starting gold, with nothing to show for it? On this server 1100 gp is a lot of money, especially for a lower level character. Its a lot more then the price of a quality weapon or most quality armor.
Steve-Law
06-08-2007, 15:54
At this point, I do not think a horse dying should cause the loss of a token. Horses should be much more hardy then a simple 11 hp, and sometimes horses run and attack things which is totally out of character for a horse. If anything, they should run away, much as a deer does. Sometimes the best intentions can go awry, and accidents do happen that should not be penalized by draconion methods to make things rough on PC's. Imagine a Rohan character, that saves all of their starting money, to raise the amount to get a horse as soon as possible to match the way he feels his character should be played. Some weird accident happens, and now he is out all his starting gold, with nothing to show for it? On this server 1100 gp is a lot of money, especially for a lower level character. Its a lot more then the price of a quality weapon or most quality armor.
That pretty much mirrors my thoughts on the dying/token issue.
As an alternative, it *could* be scripted for a summoned (but not mounted) horse to unsummon if the PC is in combat (to simulate running away). (In theory, I haven't considered how it might be done.)
But I agree with the sentiments that that is an unnecessary complication to the mod.
If the horse dies, RP that it ran away, was wounded (just like when a PC dies) or RP that it is dead and either pretend to have bought/caught/called forth a replacement using the same horse, or put your horse (item) in the trash and actually buy a new one if your RP integrity demands it.
InVinoVeritas
06-08-2007, 16:02
Well I disagree with the above but under condition that horse's HP are increased to around 60 or more. Not always horses can run away in battle and if they die that means that their owner was either careless - or was ambushed and the token should be taken away. But HP should be increased though.
Yes, I figured you disagree with the above, but why? I think me and Dakota Strider agree on our main points, and we have stated why we think that way, but you haven't really given us a clue as to why you think there should be less horses. I, atleast, am left rather oblivious. :/
edit: I'm referring not so much the dying, but more the making horses less available as discussed in the previous posts.
Steve-Law
06-08-2007, 16:28
the token should be taken away
put your horse (item) in the trash and actually buy a new one if your RP integrity demands it.
.
InVinoVeritas
06-08-2007, 17:18
What you just implied in the above post - excuse me but - is ridiculous. No - it's not my rp that demands the token taken away upon horse's demise - it's the realism of the world - even at its lowest.
It's not about rp only - as one of the players mentioned - it's about finding the right balance. If a horse dies - it dies - it's simple - and then - you cannot summon it back (5 minutes later) and put a really cheap (in this case) rp spin on it. System can be easily abused and taking the token away is easy to implement. Players would be more careful and would look after their horses.
I see it this way, it would be nice if we could increase the realism by simple script modifications to eradicate errors - fair enough, it's great - if we can't - let's rp it out - not the other way round.
Besides check this:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Hakpaks.Detail&id=7001
I think it is a tad harsh to be suggesting that those players who are "suggesting" the token be taken away on horse death should infact just ditch the token on horse death and suffer a self imposed penalty. I dont see anyone trying to force the issue either way, the discussion is for game development towards a better experience for the community as a whole.
Ive read Dakotas excellent case against but am still with Invino on the token issue and it would be my preference but its no big deal at the end of the day.
I don't tend to use horses, and with my characters being predominantly hobbits and dwarves (and one elven monk) I can't see myself doing so.
However with a cost of 1100 gold (apparently) for a horse I don't feel it can be justified removing the token on death. There are very few exterior locations where you are attacked - unless it's part of a quest, and most of those are places where RP-wise you're unlikely to be riding a horse anyway.
I wouldn't ride my horse on Himling - I doubt the ship would carry it for me in there, I also wouldn't ride it in Fangorn - in fact from what I recall from the texts the horses of Aragorn and Legolas were spooked and fled from the eaves of Fangorn - to then be found by Shadowfax it's true.
Most exterior combat - other than DM driven or PvP - from my recollection happens in places where I don't think riding horses is all that accurate - unless you're Rohirrim maybe - but horses have never been much good for combat in swamps and forests - they work best in wide open places.
InVinoVeritas
06-08-2007, 17:58
I don't think a horse can be killed in combat if you're mounted on it Lorien. I'm talkin' about horses gettin' killed when they roam about freely - riderless. It's impossible to kill a horse now without killing its rider.
Steve-Law
06-08-2007, 18:13
I don’t see anyone trying to force the issue either way, the discussion is for game development towards a better experience for the community as a whole.
But if token-removal-on-death was scripted in, then it would do exactly that Snarf. It would force the loss of the horse on the horse's death.
I'm not necessarily against the idea by the way, but I think a lot needs to be done with horses before we go do that. Increased horse HP, give the horse the option to flee, to name but two.
I only suggested the trash idea as Vino seemed to feel very strongly that he should lose his token if his horse dies, while others feel strongly that they shouldn't.
it was mostly "inspired" by what Vino said right at the start:
In today's event with DM Elbereth (bless it - check the Praise thread) we were ambushed by assasins and my horse got killed. I asked DM to remove my horse token (not all players would ask for such thing as it costs a bit).
If you trash it yourself, you don't need the DM to do it, that's all I was thinking. (Yeah, you'd have to restrain yourself until you got to a trash container, but it was just an idea.)
Vino's right on the last point though, when you are "mounted" you just have a different model, the horse no longer exists. (Another thing that needs to be "fixed" - and a pretty big job, if possibly at all.)
InVinoVeritas
06-08-2007, 18:22
Well I just don't agree with - thrash it yourself idea Steve - but on the rest of issues I'm with you and I'm lookin' forward to the modifications you can implement or if not - the new patch will implement.
Steve-Law
06-08-2007, 18:24
I'm lookin' forward to the modifications you can implement or if not
http://forums.wireplay.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3313269#post3313269
And the trash, was only a suggestion. :)
InVinoVeritas
06-08-2007, 19:10
Well done and keep up the hard work!
InVinoVeritas
07-08-2007, 17:37
Check the following link:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Prefabs.Detail&id=904
Feb 2007 I am adding my pack animal system with the saddlebag storage.
07-11-2007
I made a change to the horse system which make it function far far better. I have removed the henchman horse and destroyed it upon mounting. When you unmount, you will need to use your horse widget to get the unmounted henchman horse
Once mounted there is no unmounted horse to cause trouble with script conflicts. Upon one unmounting, they use the horse widget to resummon the horse henchman. At least for my system this is working very very well. Noticable differences:
1) No dead horses
2) No orphined horses from crashes or log off
3) No script conflicts
4) No horses wandering about
5) No restriction to resting while mounted - except you loose horse speed if you do so and need to dismount, remount to regain it.
6) Party bar not spammed with all the henchmen horses while mounted
I think this settles some of the issues mentioned here and the idea of storage bags is really really cool. Not persistant - only temporary storage and restricted as well. This settles some of the things and might be helpful to you Steve. Summoning bug still is in there I think - as one of the testers implied.
great system but is it possible to prevent someone form summoning multiple horses. I installed it and noticed you can just keep summoning more horses
Steve-Law
07-08-2007, 18:26
Sorry Vino, you've lost me. Summoning bug? In this one or my one?
I started with barry's as I stated in the other thread, and then basically rewrote it from scratch. Have you had a look at mine? (I didn't look at the pack animals or storage as that's a different issue, I'm just looking to fix horses first.)
You can't summon more than one horse with mine, and when you dismount the horse is resummoned automatically - plus you only need one item to manage your horse.
InVinoVeritas
07-08-2007, 18:28
Nah - not yours - the one in Barry's script - multiple horses...
Steve-Law
07-08-2007, 18:30
Well yeah, that's why I rewrote it :)
InVinoVeritas
07-08-2007, 18:38
Well done mate. What about those storage packs. What do you think? As I stated - temp and restricted. Intriguing idea.
Steve-Law
07-08-2007, 18:43
Mixed feelings myself.
I have heard of issues with losing items in case of crashes with the carrying scripts, if you really need it you're probably ratpacking ;). My veiw is that to get this working perfectly would be more trouble than its worth.
Steve-Law
07-08-2007, 22:56
RP-wise I think it's also dubious at best. The main time you'd need a pack animal is to carry your loot horde during a quest (otherwise as Uinen says, you're probably packing too much stuff or need to invest in some STR). And these are the main times/places that you wouldn't take a pack animal (you'd leave it outside where it might wander off, be killed by animals, looted by ne'er-do-wells, grabbed by some huge tentacled monster and dragged beneath the lake... ahem).
InVinoVeritas
08-08-2007, 10:00
1. RP-wise I think it's also dubious at best. The main time you'd need a pack animal is to carry your loot horde during a quest (otherwise as Uinen says, you're probably packing too much stuff or need to invest in some STR).
2. And these are the main times/places that you wouldn't take a pack animal (you'd leave it outside where it might wander off, be killed by animals, looted by ne'er-do-wells, grabbed by some huge tentacled monster and dragged beneath the lake... ahem).
1.I don't think it's dubious at all. RP-wise? Thorin and the company had ponies and storage bags strapped to their sides as well. I think they had additional ponies to carry the luggage too (some of them run-away and toppled the bags in the river). Then again in The Fellowship - there was the famous Bill who carried the luggage right until they had to part with the mount by the entrance to Moria. So rp-wise it's perfectly sound and legal but you say that's it's severely bugged and that's why it should be left alone. It's better to wait for the update 1.69 in that matter than waste the energy on this little project as I've just found out.
2. Mind you Steve - most of the Middle Earth places where players hang out are not the sort of places where you would take your horse into - yet - we(they) do and horses are as susceptible to accidental death as beasts of burden.
Steve-Law
08-08-2007, 10:19
there was the famous Bill who carried the luggage right until they had to part with the mount by the entrance to Moria.
Which was what I was alluding to with "grabbed by some huge tentacled monster and dragged beneath the lake" and which proves that point I was making. Where a beast of burden would be most useful in game, is precisely where it is least appropriate in character. i.e. entering the quest area (e.g. Moria). The Fellowship left Bill outside Moria, so would we.
but you say that's it's severely bugged and that's why it should be left alone.
No. I say its bugged (I don't know how severely), its not the best implementation, it is subject to loss of items on crashes or other unforseen problems (because it is temporay and not permanent storage), thus causing players to get upset and pester DMs to replace it, it encourages hoarding of items, it has very limited usefulness, it is not entirely realistic (in this implementation) and that's why it should not be used.
You seem to be working on the assumption that its a simple choice of use it as it is or use it after the bugs are fixed. You seem to be missing the third path - don't use it at all - or the fourth - use a different pack animal/storage system. (And no, don't just post another link to another system on nwvault please).
Mind you Steve - most of the Middle Earth places where players hang out are not the sort of places where you would take your horse into - yet - we(they) do and horses are as susceptible to accidental death as beasts of burden.
Horses are already in the game and the implementation is buggy. I have offered a fix to something that already exists. Saddle bags/pack animals do not exist in the module at this time. If I fix the bugs in something that doesn't exist, it still doesn't exist.
If it is decided by the DMs that they want to include saddle bags/pack animals into the mod and if I am asked to look at the scripts for them, then I will do so. With pleasure.
On the other hand, if you, or any other player, ask me (privately) to look at some scripts for their own personal use, then of course I will be happy to help, but that's not something for this forum.
InVinoVeritas
08-08-2007, 10:35
1.Which was what I was alluding to with "grabbed by some huge tentacled monster and dragged beneath the lake" and which proves that point I was making. Where a beast of burden would be most useful in game, is precisely where it is least appropriate in character. i.e. entering the quest area (e.g. Moria). The Fellowship left Bill outside Moria, so would we.
Short answer to this one - and to the one you stated before. If you'd leave the horse / luggage pony outside - then it's perfectly within rp - you 've just contradicted yourself. It's the same as with horses. There are some places where you are allowed to use them - and some places where you aren't.
2.No. I say its bugged (I don't know how severely), its not the best implementation, it is subject to loss of items on crashes or other unforseen problems (because it is temporay and not permanent storage), thus causing players to get upset and pester DMs to replace it, it encourages hoarding of items, it has very limited usefulness, it is not entirely realistic (in this implementation) and that's why it should not be used.
You seem to be working on the assumption that its a simple choice of use it as it is or use it after the bugs are fixed. You seem to be missing the third path - don't use it at all - or the fourth - use a different pack animal/storage system. (And no, don't just post another link to another system on nwnvault please).
First of all I don't seem to be working on the assumption of anything. Please don't give me your sarcasm as highlighted in the above post of yours. I haven't implied anywhere that I would post a link to a different system so far. I'm only asking questions - cause If I don't know something, I go on and ask people. That's not a crime is it now Steve? Secondly severely bugged or bugged - I think we agree on this one - so I don't see the point of your comment at all. If they wasn't bugged/ if the system wasn't flawed (much more flawed then horses) they would've been included. I was told on irc that the bugs were severe - and you were there too when It was mentioned.
The only NwVault link I posted on UTT is in the *concerning familiars* thread, and I posted it as a suggestion only.The link to the horse system - it's exactly the same system used already on UTT and the same one You used for your rebuild. I think that's what this thread is for or maybe I missed something? It says clearly: "Discuss development, ideas, suggestions and comments for our Roleplay Server, Untold Tales of Tolkien II
3. Horses are already in the game and the implementation is buggy. I have offered a fix to something that already exists. Saddle bags/pack animals do not exist in the module at this time. If I fix the bugs in something that doesn't exist, it still doesn't exist.
If it is decided by the DMs that they want to include saddle bags/pack animals into the mod and if I am asked to look at the scripts for them, then I will do so.
Ponies are already in the same hak-pak - scripts are on UTT2 as well (although buggy as mentioned above) therefore they are not entirely new- or completely new as You'd have it. They're not something you take from outside as they're already in. They're just not used and disabled. If you take something from outside and implement it it's normally much more difficult because this script / hak might not be compatible with the current system. My only point only. And yes I do agree with you it's up to the admins to decide, we / players can only offer suggestions or alternatives.
Steve-Law
08-08-2007, 10:39
Vino, I've tried to be patient and explain the situation, and my thoughts, but I've clearly failed (on one or all counts). I'm sorry for dragging this thread out.
Things are getting a little overblown here now hmm...
Bottom line here is practicality. It took a very long time to get horses anywhere near this mod...about 4 years to be precise. Not just because we were against the changes and possible redesigns of content, but the fact that most horse files out there were pretty sub-standard. We wanted a good quality horse pack and one which wouldn't upset the balance of play. What we have at the moment is perfectly adequate system whereby a speed bonus is granted - a tip of the hat there to those screaming at us for better transportation between areas and in my view better than all the cries we had for wagons, invisible horses and all other kinds of unusual transitions.
However as Steve-Law rightly states, the system has its bugs - bugs which still linger and are fixable and can probably be fixed faster and in a more desirable manner (for us) than Bioware could. The fixing of fundamental bugs is essential before expansions of the system are even considered. It's common sense and good practice.
Moving onto expansions though. I honestly can't see much room or need for them. Why over-complicate a successful system? I have read about horse "grades" and I did like that, but question how you'd impose it without disrupting the fine balance we attempt to operate. Storage on horses is one of the typical ideas you'll get - purely for text/film "realism" which if overused just detracts from the game. Steve-Law has already addressed the impracticalities of mount storage to death and I'd have to back him on that.
There's nothing to stop us having horse models with all the accessories they typically carry on them, but storage is unnecessary and impractical. We encourage factoring the environment into your roleplay and it's a simple matter to emote using a storage bag or whatever. As a principle, I have never believed throwing all kinds of average standard nwvault content at a problem will solve anything other than create more bugs and balance issues. With every new introduction comes a dozen new questions.
The focus is on making the existing system work properly and we happily accept the assistance from Steve and any other technically able persons on this.
InVinoVeritas
08-08-2007, 11:39
Moving onto expansions though. I honestly can't see much room or need for them. Why over-complicate a successful system? I have read about horse "grades" and I did like that, but question how you'd impose it without disrupting the fine balance we attempt to operate.
That's not what I had in mind - I was only referring to the storage DM_Kev and didn't even know that horse-grades exist. I only wanted to know why the current >beast of burden< code is disabled because from the rp point of view it seems as legal as mounts. But things have been explained now and I have no further questions. To improve rp - for that matter - I could with your permission / add textures and diversify horses and make saddle-bags for them too. Just a slight alteration from the visual perspective of things. Currently there are only 3.
I'll take the opportunity of having you involved and ask your opinion on - taking the token away (when a horse dies) issue.
The Frenchman
08-08-2007, 11:55
Dear Friends,
On the subject of horses, I am entirely open-minded, I find them expensive and not entirely easy to use, but have mostly enjoyed their appearance on the server. I have only one PC with a pony, old Nalnain, which I think is fair since he travels extensively trading toys. If he could get a horse and cart he probably would. I tried to buy a horse for my Beorning Huer, but for some reason and despite mine and the DMs best efforts horses would never let him ride him. I therefore RP horses disliking his Bear-like personal aroma, and many other players used to Huer do the same. He’s an 8-foot tall barbarian so he can keep up anyway.
I would just like to say a few words on communication, if I may be allowed to. If it is out of place may the great and good that watch over us please delete my ramblings. I am simply saying what is below as an aside and reminder, it is not a debate I wish to enter into, since I do not have any further time to commit to it.
I find that these days, and in this virtual medium, it is very easy for misunderstandings to occur, and persons to get upset. After all, on this forum, what are we to each other, but an avatar and printed words on a screen. In the internet medium, Emoticons aside, we have none of the visual and tonal clues which make up 80% of RL communication and it is very easy for us to misread each other. Too often also we mistake a critique of a belief for a personal attack. Added to that, we are removed from each other by two PC screen and vast distances. It is easy to forget that the recipient of the angry response we are typing is a person, with emotions, and reasons for their beliefs which a revalid to them. We live in an age where debate and discussion, particularly in the West, are often only understood as argument, where one ‘side’ must ‘win’, rather than as a collective journey (or groping) towards some kind of truth. I have seen thread after thread in forum after forum descend into this kind of negative and ultimately destructive argumentation. I also recently watched my uncle and sensei steer one such community away from that abyss, at intense personal cost in terms of time and emotions. There is no need for any of us to go there, please :)
I tend to avoid forums like the plague for the reasons above. I have found this one a good home, mainly because we play and RP together, and therefore have some personal interaction, even if through virtual and imaginary personas. It is therefore possible to get to know people and become friends on this server and the forum is all the more pleasant for it.
The somewhat heated debate that took place is to me a sign of the love and committment the people taking part, players and DMs I respect, all put into the server, and that in itself is a good thing of which we can be rpoud.
I would simply ask everyone to remember that statements and posts are best written in positive and constructive terms in the interest of us all, that when we disagree, we disagree about beliefs and ideas, and that what we perceive as a bad idea does not a bad person make, and most of that we are all people with emotions, to be treated with regard, respect and love.
I hope this finds you all well. I have no idea if I will be able to play again till early September, but I wish you all the best.
Sincerely and respectfully,
The Frenchman
Beast of Burden is not required because we do not require additional storage for PCs. The beast cannot be taken indoors which poses problems with PCs overflowing inventories being stored on these creatures. Another reason is our attempts to keep a throttle on the economy of the module. If characters have more storage, they can carry more and more items which removes any obstacles related to wealth.
By all means create textures.
The token will remain on death. Horses are expensive, or at least they are for low levels. My newish character spent a hard earned fortune on one. Losing your horse and repeatedly going to buy a new one will become a chore very quickly. The fact that the horses have little or no AI means they are idle when under attack (wont flee, etc) so it's a bit unfair on the PCs.
InVinoVeritas
08-08-2007, 13:44
Well then I am bound to ask DMs to return my horse token as much as I wanted my character to be closer to realism.
My horse accidentaly got killed by hostile npcs in the latest DME so I asked the leading dm to take the token away (maybe he would have done it without my consent - that I don't know (as in the same game I lost /broke/ my +10 thieves tools - which were taken away from me as well - without my consent). I assumed he wouldn't normally do this but wanted to be fair on him and my companions in terms of rp.
I have nothing against taking items away DM_Elbereth and offered my horse token /after you broke my ttools/ but the situation has been explained to me now by the decision making body. Could you give me my horse back? And possibly my Thieves Tools +10 too?
I personally have nothing against such measures just don't want to be a looser who gives up his horse token 'cause he cares about IG realism. :)
Well thanks all of you and excuse me If some of my posts were / or might have sounded annoying. If I have questions *shrugs* I go on and ask 'em - it's the only way to find out.
InVinoVeritas
02-09-2007, 07:28
Thanks DM Elbereth, hope to see you again soon during your DMs - if I'm lucky enough. That's what makes this world special. DM quests / events and this applies to all DM stuff. Yeah sometimes players grumble when they get killed and have some difference but as far as I'm concerned I love dm interaction and find dms here solid and fair. The article found on Wikipedia recently - ranting by some dissatisfied player is clearly subjective. Thanks all for this great experience you've given me.
Nolėtįro
02-09-2007, 23:13
Article, you say?
I'd like to read it myself o_O
There's no article about MERPUK on Wikipedia, but there is one (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/MERPUK) on NWNwiki.
InVinoVeritas
04-09-2007, 20:23
Yeah there used to be a different one - the one I was referring to. Somebody has rewritten it. I liked your wiki profile too int19h very nice indeed.
SirPrice
08-12-2007, 09:30
the update 1.69 is about to come and apparently there'll be a ride skill as well as 2 new feats: Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery (among plenty of other stuff) woohoo :D
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=604602&forum=42&sp=0
We are going to consider using this official system instead. Once we've seen how it works we will decide. It will be nice to save us the bother of correcting our own work!
Thanks for the heads up, SirPrice.
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