Meta-Gaming

[dsan1]

i'd like to know your thoughts about metagaming concerning the knowledge you have about middle-earth.
do your players e.g. know that the dead ent in the wold next to the teleporter is an ent or do you pretend thinking it is a chopped tree? how much of your knowledge from the books are you using in rp? are you playing naive or in full awareness of the secrets of ea?
i have seen everything between "there are some of the real big orcs in this wood" (uruk-hai) and some chars that seem to be middle-earth professors at the rivendel-university. what's your opinion on that?

[Guyror]

Depends upon the characters background and intelligence really.

[dsan1]

this session was a good example of what i mean: when we got down to the balrog tonite, everybody knew

1. there was one
2. his name and
3. what a balrog is

of course everybody here knows the books by heart. i also do so. this is why we play on this server. still i am sure there would be more fun if we played situations like this without meta-knowledge. if everybody knows what we're expecting down under moria, this whole thing becomes a trip to the zoo, not an adventure.
there would have been many possibilities to add some "what is this burning terror?", "is this a demon?" or whatever.

after having played quests over and over again you can let your char learn things but when facing something for the first time, i'd suggest to play the situation like something completely unknown.
i do not know if meta-knowledge about middle-earth and its history has so much to do with intelligence. in the late third age much lore is lost imo. only elves and some dunedain should know "everything" about the valar, the creation of the world and the first age. the tales from the silmarillion happened more than 5000 years earlier. not everyone can know all this. what do you know about egyptians? a little of course. but you went to school and you have library and internet acces...

this is not a rant. i just wanna suggest something. i think playing without meta-knowledge just adds fun to the game. what do you think?

[Argon Balros]

well in the fellowship a group of epic chars if ever i saw one only gandalf new anything about the balrog.

so as far as argon concerned its a imence fire demon.


and argons been around some

[morez]

*Yûshmar still doesnt believe that there are valars*
*he is just so kind to do so that his prayer friends wouldnt get angry*

his lineage is most important and he prays to his ancients but not valars pah who knows of of them..

Yûshmar mutters:"have you ever seen them??? is there a temple in middle earth for them? what? the war of wraith? yes i know the war of wraith it started when these bloody numenorians came to our land to found umbar"

[DM_Olórin]

Maths... hmm

...how i despise RP with a slide-rule. Powergamers or meta-gamers, call them what you will, have an ability to drop all pretense of respect for the work of JRRT immediately and at will. The next time I encounter that sort of play, I will feel inclined to punish the player responsible. It undermines the source material, the effort put in here and the DMs.

Working out exactly how many of what spell or what weapon required to kill a powerful creature is LAME. I do not want to hear it! Its bad enough here where its permitted to discuss techical matters but NOT IN GAME DAMMIT! Having to listen to it and/or watch the maths in action is sodding well painful and NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE GAMEWORLD. I care not a jot if you find juggling the figures a stimulating challenge, do it in your head, I find it ruins any mood or atmosphere present and KILLS RP DEAD!

Excuse the rant... but i see this to often

[Prophet7]

If I could take back being a "priest of Yavanna" and become a elf sorceror skilled in healing i would do so. It does seem so strange to Middle Earth to pray to a Valar. Although Tolkien had a strong sense of good and evil, I never saw anything like that mentioned. And a smaller point...Characters saying "Oh my God," "hell," and even "demon" don't make much sense in ME either. I didn't even think about not saying the Balrog...*stupid*...Your point makes a lot of sense Dsan.

As for the Balrog tonight, that was a great event. On the way we were assaulted by hordes of orcs and numenorians...so many it was like an army coming from all directions. We searched all over for the thing, then when we fought him we had a huge party and the help of a DM (loved the Balrog taunting us by disappearing and reappearing in darkness). Unfortunately a few of us went back later and got our @$$es handed to us. After Glogin fell it was a massacre. That thing looks so huge and scary and can knock you down very easily. But a very good evening all around.

[DM_Olórin]

Demon is fine as Gandalf refers to the Balrog of Moria as "a Demon of the Ancient World". Men (especially common men) may well have referred to the Valar as gods. Tolkien made no references to organised religions in the 3rd age but its not unreasonable that sentient beings, being what they are, would seek to creatue objects and rituals of deification.

One example was Frodo with his starglass. The words he speaks are an invocation to Varda for aid. The elves certainly venerated the Valar, but then again they were closer to them in mind and nature than any other race save the lower Ainur and Maiar.

[Shiryu]

My PC was a orphan kid in the first tier of Minas Tirith. Got himself into a noble house of one of Minas Tirith finnest families. The reason for that, is a secret. He studied and read many things in the records of the White City. He met The Grey Pilgrim in one of the many trips he took to Minas tirith. He remembes him for his kind words and nice fireworks (still a child when he saw him) After banishement at 21, he spent two years with a nomadic tribe in Near Harad. Again, don't be surprised if he speaks and knows well of Haradrin. After hearing that the true heair of isildur was in fact alive, he set forth to the north. He knwos the Ents and respects them much. He usualy says "Ra Rum" because one of the Ents (Treebear, no less) spoke in such manner and he finds it amusing. He was taken under the Dunendain after finnaly finding the heir of Isildur, who wants nothing of his past. He serves him like his liege, even tough he as no kingdom to speak off. He spend many years in the Library of Elrond. Strider gave him his Dunendain Ranger name, Shiryu. He speaks often of many things with Strider.

So, if I act really stupid, im faking it, I know alot not because I am inteligent, but because I have traveled almost all of Middle Earth !

Dont label me "metagamer" ! Yes , I DO Know of the Bane of Isildur, the One Ring. I do know what a Nazgull is. I speak of the Eye and call is name, for I am young and as such, I do not thing much on those things. I am curretly 26. My life wasn't easy, but I am no fool of a Took ...

[Lorien]

Speaking of the Balrog - 3 characters from the fellowship had some knowledge of it:

Gandalf knew exactly what it was.
Legolas also knew what it was: 'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
and Gimli ad some knowledge of it: 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.

This knowledge is further backed up in Lothlorien:

Legolas says: 'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; 'of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower'
and Gimli adds: 'Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams, I saw Durin's Bane.'

Celeborn goes on to say that the elves had long feared somthing evil lived under Moria, but weren't aware of what it was.

From these quotes we can extrapolate that:
1) The Istari are aware of what Balrog's are, but unaware one dwells in Moria.
2) The elves will know a Balrog when they see one, they know somthing evil dwells beneath Moria, but not what.
3) The dwarves are aware of the Balrog - after all it haunts the darkest dreams of Durin's folk, however they don't know it as a Balrog - even when they see it - to them it is purely Durin's Bane.

[SNarfel]

Thanks Lorien, cant realy ask for clearer guidance than that

[wyrmwrath]

I agree that those that have memorised the book, movies, Encyclopedia of Arda web site...have the ability to know much of the server game world. Its often haerd to keep suck knowlede from slipping out when RPing. Lets remember though, there are at least thee libraries in the server game world, and the balrog is detailed in several of those books. That is how Alexis learned what it was and what it is called, both as Balrog and Durins Bane. Maybe those you were with learned it the same way, sonce not every player has an eidetic memory of Tolkien lore. When I started playing the last version of the server, I didnt ven know what Esgeroith was, but was very familiar with Lake Town

[Gloin]

I know a character who actually collects the books of lore, to an extent that others pick them up and bring them to her. She has a perfect reason for knowing much about the game world.

At other times, I'd be inclined to say to "do what is right". When I first went into Moria, I was convincing my party members that it'd be perfectly safe, just another dwarf settlement except larger, recently retaken by Balin, a friend of my Father's (this was as a dwarf). The party I was with played along admirably, leading to a fantastic (and very traumatic) trip of discovery of the demise of the dwarves in Moria.

It's largely a matter of personal taste. I try not to use my knowledge of Middle Earth in-character, except to enhance RP. Example: On that trip to Moria I mentioned above, it was a shock to my char to discover the dead bodies. I knew all the dwarves were dead, of course, but he didn't. I used the knowledge that I had to make him examine the corpses and say they were not miners -- they were wearing fighting gear, and wonder what could possibly have happened.

*shrugs* In the end, do what feels right. But try to also consider your party. If you notice someone displaying a striking ignorance of a middle-earth concept, don't take it upon you to explain it to them with reference to particular scenes in the films (yes, I've had it happen to me), but rather consider playing along.

[Argon Balros]

the books as far as i am concernerd are a grey area because some of them refer to event that have yet to pass in the curent middle earth time line. so if your character new everything you read whilst in game he would know the future, so i take it with a very healthy pinch of salt.

[Lorien]

One thing I would mention about the books is that some of the information contained doesn't fit with the time period we are playing in. This has always been because we've wanted to help those players who want to know more about Middle Earth generally - however it may be time to review this.

For example at the time of our setting - indeed up until the Fellowship visit Moria - no-one is aware of what Durin's BAne is, only the Dwarves are sure that it exists.

It is during the Fellowships visit to Moria that the 'evil in the deep' is revealed and identified. Much as I'm all for increasing people's knowledge of the world it might be time to look at book content and adjusting it for our setting. We can always put the extra cointent in hte PCT support thread.

If this is what is done I'm quite haoppy to make the necessary adjustments to the books myself, although it will take some time.

[DM_Olórin]

The books ae primarily a learning tool for players and a source of info for characters second. Personally i would have not had them make mention of the War of the ring or any events in the 4th age as they havent happened yet, but if you overlook those areas of the lore then they are very useful. Good to hear some players collect them as there was a lot of research went into making and including them.

Lorien - indeed, as part of the enrichment project im in the toolset all the time anyway (although having said that not at the moment)

[Lorien]

Another note on the One Ring, its known that it must exist, but to all but Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf (who only has the slighest idea himself) it is lost to the World.

Yes the Elves know it still exists, but like most others they hope and belive it has been washed away into the sea.

[Luthianna]

Just got to say, last night not *everybody* knew who/what the Balrog was... in Vyl's defence, she did ask Teclis at the start

Then spent the rest of the time being a bit confused about *why*..... but nevermind that....

As for the books, my hobbit bard is getting rather weighed down by them and occasionally has to contribute them to one of the librarys so she can actually *walk* - but my view with her is, if she's actually been given/found/read one of the books she's carried about with her, she'll remember *some* of it at least, and will offer to look something up if people would like her too...

Just the other day she was asked along to Tolfalas - she's never been to Tolfalas, but she *had* just read a book that morning about the minotaurs there.. so she mentioned them (including references to the 'dwarfy' notes she found scribbled in the margins) - if she sees that char again, she'll ask if they *found* any, and were they like anything the book described....

Maybe people would disagree, but that's how I see that char, she'll read/collect/tell people about all the books she's got because she wants to learn about people/places to become a better bard (Anything that doesn't fit into the timeline etc I try my best to notice and not go all over the place talking about it)

Other chars of mine I treat differently, Vylenthra's from the middle of nowhere, the only thing she *does* know lots about are forest things, everything else you'll have to explain to her or show her..... My elf Luthianna has travelled all over and knows many of the places, and Alyssandra knows the south very well having travelled all over there, but relatively little of the north (never having travelled there)...

Hehe, I do remember an odd quest or two with Vyl and others looking for one of the seven dwarven rings... and eventually it was explained to her that the ring was important because it was a "family thing" i think....

[DM_Olórin]

Nice one Luth. Aye thats the best way to go.

Coming into the world fully formed and all-knowing and on first name terms with half the major NPCs from the LOTR is a bit of an ego trip and rather undermines/belittles the RP of your companions... Your deeds should earn you gravitas in the world, not the names you drop. It rather forces people to look up to you and go 'wow' from day one wether they feel its justified or not and thats a little un-neccesary.

Dont worry its just old me banging on about keepin it realistic and respecting the material

[Lorien]

*reads Olorin's maths post*

Okay this stops now or I'll be even more eivl than Olorin is planning to be. Discussing how many Acid Bombs it would take to kill Smaug presuming he has 'x' amount of hitpoints, or discussing how many times it would be necessary to cast a certain spell is METAGAMING pure and simple.

You are using your knowledge of the rule system adn numbers to beat creatures within the mod. If I see people spamming creatures with Acid bomns and the like - expect them to dissappear from your Packs until the fight is over - its not playing the game, its using ****ty tactics that we don't want here.

[Lorien]

On this topic and somthing else I would like to draw players attention to the following two rulse:

'Thou shall not metagame! Thou shall not use player knowledge as character knowledge.'

'Thou shall not repeat an action/combat area during the same server session if already completed it. Give others a chance to enjoy its content - even if it is empty when you revisit. Others can arrive at any time.'

Think, Read Rules an Obey please - don't cause us DM's headaches.

[dsan1]

@eddie: no need for excuses. this were just some thoughts! the evening still was fun (dwilin also knows about "durin's bane, he just doesn't know that he belongs to a whole species called balrogs) who took away the loot btw? was it a dm?
i also made big mistakes playing with the balrog for it was me introducing the title "flame of udun" which i know from fotr on some other event. not a good shot at all as udun is utumno, the first stronghold of melkor , long before the dawning of the sun and the first age. it was there were all orcs, trolls vampires and wargs were "designed" and were the maia were corrupted into balrogs. all this is cleary forgotten lore that not even elves know imo.

i didn't want to blame somebody. neither glogin nor shiryu. i just wanted to start this discussion...

see you!

dsan1

[Shiryu]

Lorien, I am sorry and im sure everyone on my party last night was. As I told them often, greed was taking the best of them. Im not here to cause any trouble for no one, DM or player.

[Lorien]

I'm not complaining per se - but I know a lot of the part are people who read these forums so have no excuse for not knowing the rules. I just wanted to remnind people of those two as there have been occasions where bopth have been ignored recently. They weren't aimed in this case at anyone in particular though.

[Guyror]

Was it not the 'merchant' that had to remind some of the people that greed was all consuming. After being blamed unfairly for stealing all the loot. I found it rather amusing.