What do you want?

[DM_Kev]

Best way to start these discussions I suppose.

What do you want to see in UTT3?

What are UTT2's Strengths as a module?

What were its weaknesses as a module?

We want to hear from you.

[int19h]

What do you want to see in UTT3?

Why, obviously... more of the same... only better!

What are UTT2's Strengths as a module?

- RP-centric
- large and detailed world; this includes both overall number of areas, and their quality and detail level
- low-magic world, slow XP/level progression
- true to the setting
- large number of detailed and complicated quests
- well-written NPC dialogues (in term of both detail level, and style)

What were its weaknesses as a module?

- could be more true to the setting (having classes & spells in mind)
- primitive faction system: good/evil not taking into account races and nations is just too simplistic for ME; lack of truly neutral faction is also a weakness
- lack of things to do outside of quests: free exploration/hunt areas, crafting (of course it is all there by now, or at least making its way; I'd just rather see even more possibilities in that regard)
- somewhat disbalanced classes: some are much harder to play than others
- no single place for extensive documentation (playing rules, module-specific changes for races/skills/spells etc); manual does not cover it all and often lags behind, so one has to skim through the forums, trying to determine which information is up to date, and which isn't
- linearity of some quest sequences (evil ones in particular)
- for high-level quests, too easy to die when doing it for the first time and high death penalties combined can result in a major source of frustration
- too much content simply disabled for balance reasons (classes, spells feat) rather than being replaced with something more appropriate, reducing number of choices

[ghost81]

- primitive faction system: good/evil not taking into account races and nations is just too simplistic for ME; lack of truly neutral faction is also a weakness

If you'll allow me to address this one quickly . . .

I am currently working on a much more dynamic involved faction reputation system. True neutrality will probably still be difficult to maintain for a long period of time, but through careful choice of actions etc. it may be possible to maintain an appearance of neutrality. However if you go around freeing prisoners of Mordor or killing elves your neutrality will quickly be shot to pieces.

[DM_Kev]

Thanks int19h

I'll have to agree with the weaknesses you outlined. (Im sure there's more!) Some things there which we really need to address for UTT3, so i'd be delighted to discuss these in detail with you here.

- could be more true to the setting (having classes & spells in mind)

I'm assuming here that you are referring to the creation of appropriate spells? It appears that the ME "magic" was more illusional (people appearing taller and more scary, sudden brightness/darkness) rather than the common stereotype of fireballs and lightning forks flying around. It's a fantastic idea in theory and i'd be keen to see how it played out. Taking this route though will lead to a smaller range of spells i think, thought thats not entirely a bad thing.

As for classes, I'm keen to hear what your ideal setup would be. Please tell us more.

An idea I have aired over "magic" classes, particularly the Sorcerers, is that their magical abilities be reduced (in terms of range of spells and ME suitability), but in return, they recieve a greatly increased fighting ability - ultimately, they can hold their own in moderate difficulty combat (which is what we want for all in UTT3). So yes, perhaps sorcerers could wear armour and weild any weapon they choose. They could get stuck in too instead of hanging around at the back all the time and resting frequently to replenish spells which they rely on - More fun for our "magic" players and their party too.

Right, a lot to say there...whats next...

- primitive faction system: good/evil not taking into account races and nations is just too simplistic for ME; lack of truly neutral faction is also a weakness

Ghost81 answered this one well for you. We really want to make actions have consequence in UTT3. This means that every quest, kill, conversation, tresspass and player to player interaction (when witnessed by a DM) will have consequences. We really want this to work in UTT3 so we will be putting plenty of effort to bring in the most effective system possible. Obsidian have been banging on about actions having consequence in NWN so hopefully this will be equally possible in UTT3.

A neutral system will hopefully work in UTT3 with these characters being able to choose what they do from the off, with opportunities to work for whoever they wish (including themselves!). However, be wary of upsetting one faction too much or they may never accept you again!

- lack of things to do outside of quests: free exploration/hunt areas, crafting (of course it is all there by now, or at least making its way; I'd just rather see even more possibilities in that regard)

They are on their way, but they came too late. A mistake which will not be repeated for UTT3. With side adventure readily available from the off, PCs will be able to choose whether to work for someone or wander off on their own. These side areas may hold their own secrets which may give you opportunities in the future.

- somewhat disbalanced classes: some are much harder to play than others

Feel free to list specific concerns so we can chew over them and maybe even come up with ideas for UTT3 as we will be tinkering with various classes. But there is some inbalance which needs addressing. Sorcerers may benefit from by above suggestions, rogues need a helping hand with dealing more damage I think - we really wanted them to be the 'lurking killers' of the world but they are currently the 'lurking wounders' though that is an improvement from the previous 'seen wounders' now that true seeing is gone (and will remain so).

Certain class types are at a disadvantage tooo i think - fighters as archers and dex fighters. We have worked recently on cheap ammo but it's come too late. UTT3 will offer cheap ammo with the full range avaialble with a few exceptions. Damage from archers will be increased too to give them more stopping power.

We need to work on this area so comments are welcome.

- no single place for extensive documentation (playing rules, module-specific changes for races/skills/spells etc); manual does not cover it all and often lags behind, so one has to skim through the forums, trying to determine which information is up to date, and which isn't

It's true - a big balls up on our part which i'll take most the blame for. Misinformation and misunderstandings has been spread because of this. As with all shortcomings, we will be making this a priority for UTT3 by having a manual and full forum information ready prior to the first module release. A lot of forum threads are going to the archives and will be repleaced by crisp, up to the minute topics.

- linearity of some quest sequences (evil ones in particular)

I can think of a few things here, but can you tell me a little more about this issue?

- for high-level quests, too easy to die when doing it for the first time and high death penalties combined can result in a major source of frustration

I really sympathise with this view. Some of the later quests have proven a great challenge and perhaps overly so in some cases. Designed for groups of 5 or greater, its not always possible to meet this requirement.

My honest feelings here; I don't like it when a character dies on a quest before the finale...I really hate it because the player hates it and it's not what I want my quests to offer. We (well I at least), don't create quests with killing the player in mind. The idea is to allow them to see areas of the world they've not seen before, appreciate the surroundings, have a good time with their friends, have some good scraps with their enemies, have a laugh and enjoy the plot as it unfolds. We need to make sure this principle is being followed and we will make sure it happens for UTT3.

- too much content simply disabled for balance reasons (classes, spells feat) rather than being replaced with something more appropriate, reducing number of choices

This will need to be remedied for sure. There will be changes to the game system for UTT3, some similar to as they are now, some completely new. But for each change, we will do our best to find an alternative and we will be coming to you with any ideas we have.

[int19h]

As for classes, I'm keen to hear what your ideal setup would be. Please tell us more. An idea I have aired over "magic" classes, particularly the Sorcerers, is that their magical abilities be reduced (in terms of range of spells and ME suitability), but in return, they recieve a greatly increased fighting ability - ultimately, they can hold their own in moderate difficulty combat (which is what we want for all in UTT3).

Indeed, I was mainly referring to the issues with the Sorcerer class. On a side note, instead of making sorcs more warrior-like, what could be done is restrict them to, say, 10 classes, thus requiring them to multiclass eventually. That way, the player gets to choose what exactly he wants in addition to magic powers - fighting ability (sorc/fighter), healing (sorc/cleric), diplomacy (sorc/bard), stealth (sorc/rogue) etc. Or maybe go one step further and make them a prestige class, not even takeable on lvl1.

Another issue is with clerics. In UTT2 good-aligned clerics almost universally tend to be healers (which makes sense), but another category is evil necromancers (Evil/Death domains make a very nice RP combo there). Seeing how different those two goals actually are, perhaps it warrants two distinct classes, with necromancer types obviously being alignment-restricted, and getting more nice bony summons, cursing/draining spells etc, while healers get the better healing spells.

Feel free to list specific concerns so we can chew over them and maybe even come up with ideas for UTT3 as we will be tinkering with various classes. But there is some inbalance which needs addressing. Sorcerers may benefit from by above suggestions, rogues need a helping hand with dealing more damage I think - we really wanted them to be the 'lurking killers' of the world but they are currently the 'lurking wounders' though that is an improvement from the previous 'seen wounders' now that true seeing is gone (and will remain so).

Indeed, it was precisely my point. Sorcs, rogues and bards have it pretty hard early on, though they catch up with (but do not overcome) fighter types on higher levels. Paladins and especially DDs, on the other hand, are rather powerful at any level.

I can think of a few things here, but can you tell me a little more about this issue?

Well, as it stands, an evil char can only be a minion of Mordor, no exceptions. Furthermore, the sequence of quests to be taken to progress in ranks offers no alternatives either - it's always Dol Guldur, then Isengard, then Mordor, effectively forming a single chain. Compare to goods, who can roam around at their leisure, and avoid places they do not like for some RP reason (e.g. avoid the Rangers, Rivendell elves, or Rohirrim if they feel like it).

It would also be nice to have separate quest lines for evil humans and orcs/goblins, with humans able to start as free men unassociated with Mordor in any of the mannish realms, rather than thralls in Dol Guldur.

This will need to be remedied for sure. There will be changes to the game system for UTT3, some similar to as they are now, some completely new. But for each change, we will do our best to find an alternative and we will be coming to you with any ideas we have.

It's not so much about the quests themselves being hard; it's more about how it is quite possible to slip several times in a row, and lose most/all gold and XP back to the beginning of the level. Especially when it's all earned in such a hard way... Gold can be a particularly big deal, since everyone needs food, and on higher-level quests having a few healer's kits is pretty much obligatory for character of any class, regardless of his role in the party.

Come to think of it... what about having some place in the game to loan money from, complete with interest rates, and angry guards stalking chronic debtors on the streets of the city?

[DM_Kev]

So perhaps an additional evil mid-level area is needed to mirror isengard. We never got round to setting up Harad though that would suit only a select group of PC's. Perhaps Umbar? Being a large region it could even offer a secondary start location and offer activity for a full level spread.

I liked the sorcerer ideas. We will definately investigate this.

Any other comments? Does anyone else wish to add to this?

[int19h]

Umbar is a good choice for that sort of thing. I was actually referring to it, for some reason I mistakenly believed that Umbar was a part of Harad, which is not the case (despite its inhabitants being mostly Haradrim). Naturally, the City of the Corsairs, being a major city, as well as the largest port in the region, would be the most busy place in these lands and thus a perfect setting for quests of a wide level range.

By the way, this was discussed, though in the context of UTT2, some time ago already: see this and this.

[DM_Aiwendil]

On classes, I quite like the concept of making all "pure" magic classes PRCs. No-one should start out with such a "profession" but it could be something you shift towards/into as you discover the mysteries of the world (and want to discover more).

[DM_Kev]

Umbar is an exciting prospect for the development of quests. I only wish it had been added sooner to UTT2 since i had so many exciting sea battles and raiding quests planned...We can just add them to UTT3 instead

I like Aiwendils idea by the way. There are a few methods we can use for magic users - which one do you prefer?

[DM_Aiwendil]

The prestige class idea was Int19h's mentioned in passing above, I thought it was worth pulling out to highlight.

[blode]

What do you want to see in UTT3?

Throwing spears.

i sugested it for utt 2 but at the time i think it was more hastle that it was worth to implement it.

[DM_Aiwendil]

*raises hand* A complete rewrite of the D&D ruleset/NWN engine.

(No harm in asking )

[int19h]

*raises hand* A complete rewrite of the D&D ruleset/NWN engine.

(No harm in asking )

Which is why I fully support this motion. ;P

[DM_Kev]

Thanks guys.

Throwing Spears - a great idea and very suitable. I'd love to see these in the game for UTT3. We will see if they are a possibility using Electron (the new toolset) and if not, how much work will be required to make an implemenation possible and of the quality we need.

Nice to see you around Prophet7.

I agree that archers needed a break

So do I. Already in UTT2 we are creating seperate ammunition merchants who sell full ranges (in most cases anyway) and at much lower prices than from your average smithy. This means that our archers can now enjoy fine arrows from low level and at a practical price. Not only are archers finding life easier, but they are packing a punch and becoming a valued member of any party. UTT3 will be adopting this method from the beginning.

and if that sort of big battle could be put in a NPC quest...

It's an incredible thought, isn't it. We (well I at least since ive made the vast bulk of quests) are always striving for better quality quests to provide fun and challenges for parties of players. We now have the experience and know-how to produce exactly what people want. Already we have a number of quests containing scripted battle sequences to represent situations such as sieges and assaults on positions defended by PCs (and NPCs). In the works is a new evil quest which uses these sequences in several ways - a particularly interesting one is an enemy counter attack. These sequences can be adopted to represent things like chases and take and hold scenarios.

Generally, as characters become more experienced, the quests will become more involving and events will escalate - hence pitched battles and the need for such sequences. UTT3 will see region quests becoming more campaign oriented. Each quest will be related to another, creating a campaign progression and escalation for each region - this will create a compelling story to follow and just be more fun for all.

if the building of UTT3 will be an on going process like UTT2 was

I've decided that lots of small addons and semi complete regions is not what people want. UTT3 will be released in complete sections, our own expansion packs, if you will. There will be an initial release in (estimate) March/April. This release will be complete. This means that all regions will be fully interactive, stores and people will do what they're meant to do and all the quests for a region will be available.
Any emergencies and oversights will of course be attended to and fixed, but new content will arrive in big, complete chunks. This will eliminate issues with half-done areas and a general feeling of being stuck and general incompleteness.

[Prophet7]

I haven't been around for a while...haven't had the chance to buy a new computer. But my new roommate brought hers and I plan on getting NWN2 soon and starting Tyrion and Teclis once again. I haven't seen what has been done here in the past year but here is my two cents on what I remember.

The economic model, expecially in the early levels of any character, made money as important as it is in real life. I agree that archers needed a break (Teclis spending 2k for just a quiver of decent arrows) and some of the necessities can be expensive. But I would like to see some relatively good equipment for sale even for higher level characters. It could be outrageously priced requiring someone to save for a long time to afford just one item, and if the script is not too difficult int19h's idea of a bank would be useful. Such things could create more room for a merchant character than just a crafter.

When I left DM Kev had just instituted the updated Mad Mage quest and that one Rohan one...can't remember the name. They were well-rounded in-depth quests that took forethought and strategy to complete, even if you had already had been through it and knew what was coming around the bend. Footprints that one could read, side quests, etc. made the quests realistic. I really like the idea of campaigns across Arda, and the idea of big battles are even better. The big DM events like attacking Tharbad or Minas Tirith were one of my favorite parts of UTT2, and if that sort of big battle could be put in a NPC quest...

Int19h makes a good point about a true hunting ground, areas where there are no quest but still monsters to kill. If you play long enough there is always a point where there are no quests to do expecially if the building of UTT3 will be an on going process like UTT2 was. Also it could be a chance to put more animals in the world and give druids a reason to have animal empathy.

Although it weakened my character, it was good to see cleric's offensive magic taken away. A powerful healer is still extremely useful and in its own way a powerchar. I would like to see what NWN2 has done to increase buffs because I have a feeling they did. Overbuffing could become a problem very quick once again. Sorceror spells could become buffs, charm/confusion, fear, and that sort instead of much offensive magic.

UTT2 was a huge improvement, and I have faith that UTT3 will be just as good if not better.

[timppako]

What I'd like to see:

-multiple starting locations
Perhaps even different starting locations for different races or at least multiple options to choose from. I know it would take more work to make many quests for new characters and it would lower the chances to meet fellow players, but it would greatly increase replayability and could enhance our RP options. Like now the starting locations are becoming a bit too familiar. It would be good that different races would have 1-2 or even three different locations to choose from.

-different faction design
Instead what we now have like for evils is that you start in Dol Guldur, then go to Isengard etc., there could be a system where you during playing or perhaps even from the beginning join to a certain faction. This would then tie you to the faction, giving you the possibility to take more quests, especially high level, from that faction and limiting and perhaps even preventing you to take quests from other factions, maybe even make some factions hostile towards you. This could also encourage players to have many characters and increase replayability. It would also make a lot more work in making quests and designing areas.

With this kind of faction system you could give a better picture of different goals of the factions.

(example of factions: Dunedain rangers, Rohan, Men of Norh, Gondor (Ithilien rangers, Knights of Dol Amroth), Orcs of Isengard, Orcs of Mordor, Elves (Rivendell, Lorien, Mirkwood, Havens), Harad and Khand)

-Make it so that NPC guards are not hostile because of your alignment, but are hostile towards certain races. This way you could, for example, make an evil Gondorian, who might not serve the enemy he is just crooked, but perhaps he could be later recruited by some enemy agent. This way characters alignment could truly reflect his view of the world and his morals. And it would give more RP options. Perhaps it could be made by different tokens? That there would be a racial token and even criminal tokens for different factions. You could be a wanted criminal in Gondor, but free in Rohan or Tharbad.

That's all for now... I hope you get the idea.

[DM_Kev]

Thanks timppako.

Your first two points are echoing the sentiment of others which is great. We want to give players more choices and be more in control. Expect at least 2 starting points each for good and evil. A third im unsure of - depends on builders and what can be done in our initial release timeframe. Factions suggestion is great, we will investigate this along with the many other ideas we are following up.

-Make it so that NPC guards are not hostile because of your alignment, but are hostile towards certain races.

That's a good one. The rest of the suggestion looked good too. Again, more options and control in the hands of the player which is what we want. Aiwendil may want to input on this idea too.

[int19h]

It should be noted that guards reacting towards race & faction rather than alignment is quite doable in terms of scripting even in NWN1. What more, we already have that working at least in part, with guards making life hard for orcs in Tharbad and Bree.

[DM_Aiwendil]

Regarding Timpakko's faction ideas, I think that Ghost's "Reputation" System is going to address that quite accurately. Quests will be limited according to your reputation towards a particular faction, rather than a crude alignment/level check.

E.g. if you have been working almost exclusively for the forces of Mordor, expect to be offered progressively difficult/higher profile quests from mordor than from the Northern Rangers, who don't know who you are and are less likely to trust you.

(Yes, making guards react to race is fairly easily doable, but much more so with a clean start as with UTT3 than trying to rewrite every convo in UTT2! If we also incorporate the set subrace idea - given a choice of a list of subraces at character creation/first log in - then we can even use subrace in this for humans perhaps. Having said that there is talk that humans should have more accessibility to more areas as their alignment is not always obvious from their race (not withstanding predjudice based on skin colour etc, if that is possible with NWN2))

[ghost81]

Another flip side of the Reputation system will be that it has a 'spill-over' effect. Aid the Shire and Bree and you may find that your reputation with the Dunedain improves (after all they guard these towns themselves). Aid one Elven nation and the others may give you warmer welcome. The Men of the North (Esgaroth/Dale) will likely have close links with the DWarves of Erebor. However the opposite is also true, do great deeds in the name of Gondor, and you will find a less than warm reception with the forces of Mordor. Aid the Rohirrim in noticable ways, and whilst Gondor will approve, factions within Isengard may not.

I'm not going to go into numbers or further detail (as this may be an 'invisible' system), but I can tell you that the whole idea of reputations and factions will be a lot more dynamic and flexible (and your starting ratings may be impacted upon by sub-race and alignment).

[blode]

i like the idea of it ghost81, however i can see it being hard for neutrals...or is that one of the reasons for it?

[DM_Aiwendil]

Personally I think it *should* be hard for neutrals. How long can you avoid "taking sides" even if you just "conform" to those around you without truly believing in the cause. But the new system (in concept, which remember it still only is) should make it easier for neutrals than the current non-neutrality of neutrals. You should be able to balance your neutral status for a good while, if not indefinately, by chosing your patrons carefully. I would, however, expect that its only "fair" that the majority and the highest quests be quite clearly good/evil (that is a major part of the setting after all).

[ghost81]

As I said originally it will be hard to maintain true neutrality forever - and no it should be. High reward quests are going to be those that make you noticeable, which will make you both friends and enemies.

Yes you could probably spend your whole life in the shire and Bree, helping out people who've taken no actuial side, but you won't become an impressive warrior etc doing it. The other thing to bear in mind is that not all quests will have negative reputation. Helping Breelanders and Shirefolk (for example) with local problems isn't going to throw you into the notice of the forces of 'evil'. However no-one can maintain neutrality once they start working for one side or the other in a 'war' (and I use the word advisedly) situation. In the setting people who do high visibility tasks for a 'warring' faction are going to be noticed by allies and enemies - can you see Sauron saying 'Oh you releases a group of my prisoners for money? That's okay, now you can ambush a Gondor convoy for me' or Denethor saying 'You betrayed our garrison at Cair Andros for gold? You're a mercenrary? That's alright then - you can deliver these messages to Rohan for me' ? - It wouldn't happen, if you want to stay truly neutral you would have to avoid openly taking sides in the wars. Delivery for factions sin't going to make you so noticeable so will have lesser faction spill over, but takingdirect action will get you seen so have further reaching effects.

[blode]

fair one, i only have one neutral character atm its hard to keep him balanced. Its just too easy too go chaotic or lawfull as choices are very easy, theres no sitting on the fence your one side or the other, simple as.

i agree that the more prestigious quests should be strictly good/evil

Just curious about what was in store for neutrals.

[ghost81]

My plans (as I will be building the Breelands) is for a full range of quests in the area, some of which will be higher level - and won't be accessible until the people of Bree know you. It will be possible to get high Rep with places like Bree without alienating others, unless you mess directly with a particular faction - but this may not be something you're aware you're doing. I would picture there being quests for most factions that improve (a little) your standing with them, without seriosly damaging your standing with others.

It all depends what your character wants/what you want for your character - if they're happy mainly working in the 'corners' of the world, not becoming embroiled in world events too much, then neutrality is possible - if they're someone who wants to make a difference in a big way then neutrality will inevitably slip - one way or the other.

I'm not against neutral characters, and what with more non-quest areas an aim, they will have a place in our world, but we do have to bear in mind the backdrop - which in the long term may make neutrality difficult to maintain.