What do you want?

[DM_Aiwendil]

I think the idea is that it takes a few levels for class/build differences to start to show/become useful, meaning that with a few levels under your belt characters are more clearly suited to particular roles (in the party and in the world).

I tend to agree with ghost's view of giving the wrong message though and it can be much nicer to RP your characters early growth and development.

[int19h]

It is better to party, but being level 3 rather than level 1 won't help that in any way. The same problems with finding a party regardless of level will exist then as does now.

Of course, and noone said that is an issue with starting at lvl1.

I've always been against servers which give levels away on entering - it seems to give players the wrong impression - everyone I've visited, even those that pertain to be RP servers, tend to be populated by powergamers, and people racing for levels - this may not always be the case, but has been in my experience.

Correlation does not imply causation, and then again... doesn't it always feel good to break some evil but long-established tradition?

I can't actually see any gain of starting a couple of levels higher - does it effect RP - no ...

Actually, yes, it does, insomuch as your character's class, feats and skills do. Which I think everyone agrees they do - otherwise elven rogues and orcish clerics would not be discouraged. Here's an example for UTT2: a particular build I find most suitable for a Ranger of the North is Ranger/Paladin, for fairly obvious reasons. This is quite distinct from either pure Ranger, or pure Paladin (even DEX-oriented), and that distinction can and should carry over to RP. But, for the distinction to show, at least lvl2 is needed to get 1 level in each class. The same goes for any other multiclass build. Prestige classes are different of course (in that one usually needs way more than 2 char levels to get even 1 level in a prestige class), but that's why they are called "prestige"...

Also if we have a relatively low level cap again, it will shorten a characters experience in the world as well.

It obviously depends on how many levels you give at the beginning. From my experience in UTT2, characters get their lvl2 in the first 1-2 hours of play (basically doing all non-combat Shire quests is what it takes), and quite often lvl3 in the same day, if a suitable party is formed for tougher Shire and Bree quests. So that's how much would be taken away should the starting level be higher. It doesn't seem to be a big deal for either lvl2 nor lvl3 as starting level to me, but even so I'd prefer lvl2 (just enough for multiclass builds to show their nature).

[DM_Aiwendil]

It obviously depends on how many levels you give at the beginning. From my experience in UTT2, characters get their lvl2 in the first 1-2 hours of play (basically doing all non-combat Shire quests is what it takes), and quite often lvl3 in the same day, if a suitable party is formed for tougher Shire and Bree quests. So that's how much would be taken away should the starting level be higher. It doesn't seem to be a big deal for either lvl2 nor lvl3 as starting level to me, but even so I'd prefer lvl2 (just enough for multiclass builds to show their nature).

But counter to that: is it such a big deal to wait those mere 1-2 hours for your char to start to show those distinctions? Especially balanced against the possibility of giving the impression that its levels that matter.

I usually use those few few hours/levels to try and "get into the skin" of the character. If they don't feel right they won't generally get past level 3 and I'll just start another so I find them useful in that regard.

Having said that I wouldn't personally be dead against giving one level (to bring you to level 2) after the starting equipment area/system, providing there is a genuine desire/purpose for it (which is still debatable).

[Mhyradin]

I can't actually see any gain of starting a couple of levels higher - does it effect RP - no.

I still agree with this point. We don't introduce ouselves in character by saying: "hello I'm Patsy the paladin/cleric." And, given this, why would it matter that the build isn't yet what you want it to be? A character can have their own outlook and history at the moment of generation and can therefore be roleplayed. For me the 'pile of numbers and feats' way of looking at characters constitutes less than half of who they actually are.

While I agree that, ideally, characters should be partied for quests we also have to give consideration to the new player who logs onto the mod and finds themselves wondering what to do. At the moment the Shire is nicely engineered with little quests that have them running backwards and forward (greatly increasing the chance of them running into other characters) and gaining their first couple of levels. Which to my mind works very nicely.

[int19h]

But counter to that: is it such a big deal to wait those mere 1-2 hours for your char to start to show those distinctions? Especially balanced against the possibility of giving the impression that its levels that matter.

I fail to see how it would be a greater motivator to believe that levels matter any more than the level-centric D&D system in and of itself, to be honest...

I still agree with this point. We don't introduce ouselves in character by saying: "hello I'm Patsy the paladin/cleric."

No, but it's your skills and feats which "give away" your PC's background to other; in addition to your RP, of course - which might at some times include the desire to not otherwise elaborate on said background. It's the sort of thing when some guy who feels somewhat shady, despite being a smooth talker and projecting a nice guy image, suddenly turns out to know his way around locks and traps and such - that's when your char starts asking questions. How is it not RP? Yet it's all about the character's skill (Lockpicking) in this case, something that's strictly build related and comes from the 'pile of numbers' you mention.

For me the 'pile of numbers and feats' way of looking at characters constitutes less than half of who they actually are.

I agree that it's 'less than half' RP-wise, but it's still a noticeable part of what they are. Otherwise, like I said before - why no elven assassins, dwarven rangers, and orcish clerics - if 'pile of numbers and feats' is really not of any significance?

[Kyle Morgan]

I agree with int19h that your classes and levels does have impact on the roleplay. When i imagine Naighîn to be rebuilt as a Sorceror/assassin i can assure you that the impact on my rp would be gross.
Nevertheless nobody starts there where you want your character to be. Everyone used to be a lvl0 civilian before chosing the first class. Thus the difficulty arise when you chose to play an already established role, but i do not believe that you can find a general solution for that. The players will always have to arrrange with the module in one or another area.

Personally i believe that the starting level is correlated to the starting quests. If your starting quests are designed for lvl 1 then starting at lvl 1 is appropriate. If all quests are designed for lvl 1 then a level cap at lvl2 might be a good idea.

[Kyle Morgan]

Monks are a tricky thing. I did come to like the class a lot myself, but they (fighting monks anyway) do not fit the setting well. There's certainly no mention of monk-like figures or philosophy strands among Elves or western Mannish nations I can recall, and the concept seems to be rather alien. At best we could say that such tradition comes from little-known eastern realms (Khand, for example), which would be consistent with the D&D Monk class as it is (e.g. its rather exotic weapon proficiencies). Not sure it would be even worth a bother then.

I agree that the RP-concept of Monks as eastern martial arts Zen master does not fit the Tolkien world. Hence i suggested to use the class and its numbers/feats/skills but change its background to Elder elven. Personally i find the class feats combined with the elven weapon proficiencies very suitable for elves and perfectly integrating with Tolkien's world. I would although remove the lawful requirement and maybe replace it with requirement: good alignment.

[DM Curumo]

Getting rid of the super hyper drive speed is another thing that does not suit this world, when it comes to monks. So limiting the class to a maximum of 10 levels would be my opinion on the matter.

It also rules out some of the more weird special abilities, such as very high damage from fists, self healing, spell resistance. Etc.

[int19h]

Hence i suggested to use the class and its numbers/feats/skills but change its background to Elder elven.

The problem is, I don't recall many (or even any) masters of hand-to-hand combat among elves, whereas Monk feats and UAB are really all about hand-to-hand...

And once you get rid of UAB and SR (as Curumo suggests above), the class will become weaker than pretty much any, even the weirdest, build.

[DM_Aiwendil]

No, Curumo is suggesting capping Monk levels at level 10. They will only lose whatever they would get from 11 - 20 (unarmed damage stays at 1d10, no Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, Perfect Self - and no monk speed).

I always thought it odd that of all classes Monks were made to stay pure, when it is almost universally agreed that the most powerful monk is the pure monk. I do conceed that its not a suitable class to multiclass from an RP point of view (if you go with the obviously "Shaolin/Grasshopper" slant of the class) but by the same token I agree its not very suitable for ME.

Perhaps a similar but less "spiritualised" version of the class (prestige perhaps) to allow for unarmed combat specialists, but with a more boxing/wrestling/Tulkas design? (A Paladin of Tulkas should fight unarmed and unarmoured like the Valar himself (with a "laughter" feat that bestows fear on their opponents ), but with any class other than Monk, this is plainly suicidal.)

[DM Curumo]

Dwarven Slugger / Drunken Master

[DM_Olórin]

Most new characters wil achieve level 3 or 4 within a couple of playing sessions, especially if in a party. A lot of low level XP is very easy to get indeed. I can well understand why there is an argument for starting on level 3 but its one that i think is adressed in many ways by offering non combat and low risk quests to players at very low level, and to start at level 3 would undermine the "starter level" content that has been included.

Yes we could beef up the starter level content, but that would probably have the knock on effect of having to increase challenges at higher level quests as players will find themselves approaching those levels that bit sooner.

Even if it did not effect higher level quests it would certainly change the nature of areas like the shire. It would either make them entirely redundant or make them dangerous. Id like to see neither of those things happen of course

I personally feel its better to earn the experience rather than start with it. In the case of long lived races it can be argued that they should enter the game with a lifetimes worth already, but its not something we can do to one race and not others. In the past ive had players ask me to start them at level 10 because they want a powerful character. Naturally i refused that request. If still possible to RP a powerful or experienced character without having to give them a leg up. In a RP situation your actual level is less important than your characters persona anyway.

No one is obliged to agree with any of this of course and as i said there are arguments in favour of skipping the "embarassing pre-school" of the first couple of levels if you dont feel that there is a viable RP route around those vulnerable early days of a characters in game life. But there is you know. There's always a way to do it if you want ther to be one.

In my experience, and i have played all kinds of characters on this server, I honestly dont feel any need for jumping the first couple of levels. Some of my "elder" character types are also among my mid to lower level characters. I find this no obstacle to RPing them as venerable or indeed from an earlier age. Indeed most of my ingame time with such characters is purely RP and not in way dependant or influenced by the level they have achieved in a game sense.

Bear in mind this is only my opinion. Im sure that it you take time to analyse what i say here that there are a gamut of ways to tell me how wrong I am... After all ive been away a while... But there is - directly - no wrong or right. Its a matter of style.

[DM_Aiwendil]

Even if it did not effect higher level quests it would certainly change the nature of areas like the shire. It would either make them entirely redundant or make them dangerous. Id like to see neither of those things happen of course

And Shirriffs would have to change from the amiable village PC Plod to the Armed Response Unit!

(Dixon of Dock Green goes Dirty Harry!)

*faints dead away*

[int19h]

No one is obliged to agree with any of this of course and as i said there are arguments in favour of skipping the "embarassing pre-school" of the first couple of levels ... But there is - directly - no wrong or right. Its a matter of style.

Indeed, I wholehearedly agree. I do feel uncomfortable when some of my characters' background is not really represented properly at lvl1, so I avoid partying/RPing until after completing a few Shire quests to get another level and get the character to where I intended him to begin his "proper" life in ME. It is largely for the same reason that I advocated for the free shop in the starting area - it lets characters begin their life prepared the way players want them to be, within reasonable limits. But I understand that it is a personal preference, and some (the majority, as it seems) prefer to go with what they get, and RP their way around it.

[int19h]

Perhaps a similar but less "spiritualised" version of the class (prestige perhaps) to allow for unarmed combat specialists, but with a more boxing/wrestling/Tulkas design? (A Paladin of Tulkas should fight unarmed and unarmoured like the Valar himself (with a "laughter" feat that bestows fear on their opponents ), but with any class other than Monk, this is plainly suicidal.)

That sounds more like the Brawler class.

[DM_Aiwendil]

I have, once or twice, done the same thing - sneaked in the first level solo at quiet times ready to face the world a little more fully formed. I think it's better to allow that freedom of choice. It doesn't take long to get that first level if you feel you really must for your character, but not all characters need it, and in fact it would be detrimental to others such as the fresh faced innocent Hobbit leaving the Shire for the first time, or the farmer out for revenge against the goblin raiding party that destroyed his farm etc...

[DM_Aiwendil]

That sounds more like the Brawler class.

Yes, quite that sort of thing.

[DM_Olórin]

On monks.

I feel that while Tolkien made no mention of anything like them they can be fitted into Middle Earth, as Middle Earth's cultures reflect real world cultures in many other instances.

However, in my opinion they belong among the more exotic human cultures as they do in our own world.

Its not impossible that certain elves might choose monk-like aesthetics and meditations, but such elves would need to be extremely rare indeed. Elven kindred culture doesnt really mirror the wide range of human cultures and while mystical in many aspects just dont feel like kung-fu masters to me Perhaps some sort of elvish monk subclass as mentioned above but it would need some pretty careful thought.

Dwarf monks, no (it would mean not desiring a ton of posessions), hobbit monks no (it would mean a healthy diet), half orc monks, er, no (it would mean self discipline and learning).

The reason monks were allowed to remain in the first place when other classes were removed was due to a precieved desire in the community that they should remain. Many people enjoyed them and with a slight stretch they could fit in without unbalancing the world in favour of that class. We restricted the commoner expolits of monk levels by making them single class only. In addition it was becoming painful to keep chopping out bits of the game and watching the disapointment on all the tear stained faced of the players who were watching their favoured classes go the journey and disappear into the west (or into an abyss) depending on your point of view

As with many things it was a compromise. But for us to achieve a perfect world we would need to destroy NWN and recreate the properties of all its races and classes and feats and such from scratch, or very nearly so. Its not impossible to do that but as with everything else its a question of time and resources. The more work, work, work the less fun those responsible for building, scripting and overseeing the world have. Literally it would become a full time job and most of us already have one of those too

I think what we have may be flawed in some ways but sufficiently and enjoyably Middle Earth like in significant others. . While monks are certainly anomalous in Tolkien, its workable if monk players choose sensibly how to play thier seekers of enlightenment.

Again just my thoughts. Not necessarily those of the rest of the devs.

[int19h]

I have, once or twice, done the same thing - sneaked in the first level solo at quiet times ready to face the world a little more fully formed. I think it's better to allow that freedom of choice. It doesn't take long to get that first level if you feel you really must for your character, but not all characters need it, and in fact it would be detrimental to others such as the fresh faced innocent Hobbit leaving the Shire for the first time, or the farmer out for revenge against the goblin raiding party that destroyed his farm etc...

I agree, and I myself had characters for which lvl1 would be more appropriate. So how about having it as a visible option then? For example, before the character leaves the starting area, ask the player whether he wants that extra 1000xp or not?

[DM_Olórin]

I agree, and I myself had characters for which lvl1 would be more appropriate. So how about having it as a visible option then? For example, before the character leaves the starting area, ask the player whether he wants that extra 1000xp or not?

The fact is that its not a big thing but *i feel* that its not the mesage we want to send as a server and that would worry me. Do you guys really think that its such bother to do the low level stuff and earn 1000 xp. If it is then we need to address this if the arrival of new players is too hard, discouraging, unexciting or unsatisfyling.

If a thing is broken it needs mending but i wasnt aware of any such problem or opinion in that direction until i saw it here. What needs to be understood is will another shift towards making UTT even quicker and easier at lower levels be a benefit or will it be ultimately negative?

The fact is given the choice, some people will always take the handout whether or not its appropriate.

[Kyle Morgan]

On monks.
Its not impossible that certain elves might choose monk-like aesthetics and meditations, but such elves would need to be extremely rare indeed. Elven kindred culture doesnt really mirror the wide range of human cultures and while mystical in many aspects just dont feel like kung-fu masters to me Perhaps some sort of elvish monk subclass as mentioned above but it would need some pretty careful thought.

I can agree to that. I would rather strip the monk class from every monk-like aesthetics/meditations/Kung Fu etc. when looking at elves. The class-skill range, focus on wisdom ability and the class feats seem elven like to me.
Feats like Evasion, Perfect self, Monk AC Bonus, Monk Speed, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Wholeness of Body, Purity of Body, Deflect arrows and Still mind would still fit elves great (IMO) because they are spiritual beings and do not need all the Zen-Philosophy to achieve them. Even Ki-Strike although it might be extended to be usable with weapons.
But then they might even fight unarmed because of their perfect body control, speed and inner foresight to predict the attacks of armed opponents, not because of some Kung Fu martial arts skills.
To find these powers (like Diamond Soul) on humans feels wrong regardless their amount of meditations because they are no magical beings. I can rather explain them on elves, but maybe that is just me.

[timppako]

On monks.

...its workable if monk players choose sensibly how to play thier seekers of enlightenment.

I agree with Olórin and I'd extend the sensibly part to almost all classes. The weapon master PRC is also built as a japanese samurai in mind, but as Olórin said, it all depends of the players how they play their characters. Are the feats names and descriptions taken too seriously? They just represent the skills the characters have learned. The different ways to learn a same skill are many... Ki strike, perfect body, diamond soul, etc. Should aura of courage automaticly mean that all paladins are completely immune to fear? Common sense and imagination are the tools that help in here. But it would be nice to have few different kind of prestige classes for a monk-type character. The more options there are more easier different people find what they are looking for.

*coughes* the new PRCs *coughes*

[DM_Olórin]

not having looked up exactly what diamond soul does, but if its the immune to non magical weapons feat. that i feel is inappropriate for monks anyway as few enemies he will face will actually have weapons with enhancement on. more so here.

we should rename this thread "the thing about Monks is..." thread

Edit: im informed by DM_Namo that its Magic Resistance. This could be seen as spiritual strength. Its not necesarily a magical trait, but indeed the lack of magical susceptibility. Still with magic reduced here it could be considered gratuitous. Possibly something else might be more appropriate.

Immunity to poison or disease or such is not half so bad as its about command over ones immune system and bodily energies to combat such things with great effect. Sorry if i got the wrong end of the stick. Im sure someone wouldve told me sooner or later In the classic eastern monk type that does still seem appropriate. its not necesarily magical, mystical yes but something naturally so.

Note: That last comment is not intended to open any cans of worms what so ever.

[misterroboto2]

What do we want? More candy! When do we want it? Now!

heehee sorry I just couldn't help it


aaaanyhoo... about the monk class: I think it fits the Avari (or Sylvan) type of elves. Their magic resistance could be a metaphor for how they rejected the valar and the light of Aman. I like to play their unarmed fighting as a rejection of "civilized" weapons and metals. Kinda like hippie fighters . As for their extra speed I see it as a natural consequence of their lack of armour: do you really think a fighter lugging a full plate armour should be as quick to run as someone who is only wearing a robe? Also, the avari (or sylvan) may have developped this ability as they hunted in the wild. Resistance to poison/disease would also be a natural consequence of this.

Well that's just my two cents on it... though I would very much like more candy :d

[blode]

Insted of summoning an elemental insted, how about an Archer, Fighter or a mage? Perhaps even a squad of them? An Eagle even?